From the story when the disciples were in the boat during the storm, and in a panic they awoke Jesus for help (Mark 4:37-41), how can we learn from this situation how to practice the idea of “holy indifference.”? How do the two concepts of “desire nothing” and “refuse nothing” complement one another? This of desire/refuse nothing is said to not be a permanent state, but a sort of discernment state. How can we learn from this the difference between: following God’s will within the boundaries of human freedom — and — a strict legalistic view of God’s will that would be concerned with too much detail, for example, wearing the wrong pair of clothes as being against God’s will?
How can we embrace the concept of “holy indifference” as something positive opposed to “normal indifference” which can be something sinful (according to the Catechism # 2094)?
What would the two vices be that one could fall into by a false practice of “desire nothing, refuse nothing”?
SrSusan (guest): http://visitationspirit.org/2014/11/ask-for-nothing-refuse-nothing/
Anne Marie : Hello. Happy Feast of Christ the King!
Nov 23 2014, 7:22 PM
Guest1784 (guest): etachment to things of the world as opposed to things of the world
Guest6518 (guest): thanks for the welcome sister
Sister Susan Marie: Have you pondered ask for nothing, refuse nothing? It is not a typical way that people live!
Judy K: “On His cloak and on His thigh a name was written: King of Kings and Lord of lords. To Him be glory and and power for ever.” ntiphon 3 from Evening Prayer. Happy Feast Day everyone!
Nov 23 2014, 7:24 PM
Guest6518 (guest): I did but not for long b/c the chat was upon me
Judy K: This was a tough one requiring a lot of pondering and some research.
Anne Marie : I have pondered it, and it speaks to me of total trust and abandonment to the Lord.
Sister Susan Marie: Yes a most poweful Feast! He is Our Lord
Anne Marie : I couldn’t stop thinking about St. John of the Cross – Dark Night. His house being at rest…
Sister Susan Marie: Abandonment yes most surely. Just imagining oneself in danger and practicing holy indifference is a challenge of trust in itself
Guest6518 (guest): a mighty way to live meekly in today’s world
Guest1784 (guest): I think there are two areas here . One that is spiritual and one that is of the world. PM
Anne Marie Surely a challenge. The poor apostles in the boat taking on water and Jesus was sleeping soundly (abandoned to the father’s care).
Nov 23 2014, 7:27 PM
Guest1784 (guest): In the spiritual we can become indifferent to things of the world and grow in the Lord.
Sister Susan Marie: We need to make that basic choice. Yes! In fact, as I recently saw with one of our Sisters danger may call us into a space interiorly where our decisons differ from times of safetyPM
Anne Marie r: Do you mean like the “Fight or Flight mentality”?
Judy K: I looked in a book based on “Treatise on the Lord of God” and found this: “The indifferent soul wills nothing, but lets God will what pleases God. It is a simple state of attentively saiting. It is prepared for what may come. When events happen, the waiting becomes acquiescience.” The concept of asking nothing, refusing nothing is a difficult one to connect with.
Nov 23 2014, 7:29 PM
Sister Susan Marie: And these days to be “indifferent” would not be considered a compliment or a postive attribute. But holy indifference has a profound meaning
Sister Susan Marie: Yes fight or flight in a way
Anne Marie : Yes, Thy will be done, Lord.
Judy K: If we ask nothing, are we not ignoring the word of the Lord to “ask and you will receive” and “if you ask anything in My name, you will receive it. And if we refuse nothing, do we not risk accepting something that is not good, or perhaps even sinful?
Sister Susan Marie: So we have to really build up our trust and our patience
Sister Susan Marie: That’s a great question! let’s think about that one
Nov 23 2014, 7:32 PM
Judy K: I think that holy indifference might be expressed as “I desire what God desires and am happy to live in His will.” And normal indifference might be expressed as “Whatever! I don’t care.”
Nov 23 2014, 7:33 PM
Sister Susan Marie: Yes- that’s the key- the Will of God. Ansd when we do ask to receive, we are still waiting un His Will as to whether we receive it or not
Anne Marie : Even if it’s suffering.
Guest6518 (guest): to be thankful even if He doesn’t give us what we ask for
Judy K: I would hope that all of us who have our hearts set on the Lord would have the discernment to refuse anything sinful. And so I wonder if the statement “refuse nothing” is acceptable.
Sister Susan Marie: And God will only give what is for our ultimate good, even if it is a state of suffering that occurs to us
5 PM
Judy K: And suffering can always be united to those of Jesus and offered for souls, living and deceased.
Sister Susan Marie: I think refuse nothing is not a bare statement but in St Francis’s thinking, always allied to the will of God.
Sister Susan Marie: This ‘desire nothing, ask for nothing, refuse nothing’ is not a permanent state, but a stage in seeking God’s will. It is the ‘balance that holds the scales at rest ‘ where the will abstains from taking sides as it does not know God’s preference.
Sister Susan Marie: So said the author
Judy K: So refuse nothing applies to those things that we feel certain are God’s will?
Guest6518 (guest): it means for us to put the reins on our own will
Sister Susan Marie: I think the whole concept is related to our relating to God
Sister Susan Marie: Having silenced our own desires and surrendered ourselves to God’s will, we receive the gift of holy indifference: a peace of mind and soul (at the supreme point of the spirit, because there can be outward and surface turmoil) that enables us to wait for God’s will to manifest itself.
Nov 23 2014, 7:39 PM
Sister Susan Marie: The author seems to put the whole statement into a place of relationship with the Lord, in my interpretation and understanding anyway
Sister Susan Marie: How it plays out in real life can be the issue- do we apply this
Sister Susan Marie: How it plays out in real life can be the issue- do we apply this concept incorrectly
Sister Susan Marie: One of the questions was: What would the two vices be that one could fall into by a false practice of “desire nothing, refuse nothing”?
Sister Susan Marie: That’s the danger I think
Guest6518 (guest): remaining too long in this state without acting
Judy K: St. Alphonsus speaks of the difference of being “in conformity” with the will of God, and being “in uniformity” with the will of God. Conformity would be accepting something as being God’s will. Uniformity means that we are in a state where our will and the will of God are one. We will only what God wills. I think that this state would make us live in holy indifference because our own will has, as it were, disappeared.
Nov 23 2014, 7:43 PM
Sister Susan Marie: Not responding to God’s Will as one perceives it?
Anne Marie : I can surely imagine maybe sloth (?) or just general indifference may come into play just waiting for God to do EVERYTHING.
Nov 23 2014, 7:43 PM
Sister Susan Marie: Oh that’s a good comparison there, in conformity and in uniformity
Sister Susan Marie: So one suspects that God is calling you to something and you keep looking for signs before acting, for ex, Anne Marie?
Sister Susan Marie: Is that what you mean or something like it?
Anne Marie : Yes, exactly.
Judy K: As to asking nothing, might we not forget that we are mere creatures and that He wants us to ask, even though “the Father knows that you need all these things.’
Nov 23 2014, 7:47 PM
Anne Marie r: He does tell us to ask, but for instance: We ask but nothing seems to happen. Then we should resign to his will of maybe no, or wait.
Sister Susan Marie: I think the asking might be to ask over and over for God’s will to be revealed, at least on this level in reference to Divine Providence
Anne Marie : He does tell us to ask, but for instance: We ask but nothing seems to happen. Then we should resign to his will of maybe no, or wait.
Nov 23 2014, 7:47 PM
Sister Susan Marie: I think the asking might be to ask over and over for God’s will to be revealed, at least on this level in reference to Divine Providence
Judy K: In other words, not to ask for something in particular,but only to ask for His will to be known and accomplished.
Sister Susan Marie: The question is becoming for me, how universal in our life is this asking nothing, refusing nothing? perhaps that conformity and uniformity
Sister Susan Marie: After all, as you have mentioned, the Scripture itself has the Lord telling us to ask!
Sister Susan Marie: But as we advance in the spiritual life, as the saints show us, they/we do become more united with God will
Judy K: If we are in uniformity with the will of God,then we will be in the habit of accomplishing His will. Our purpose in life will be to do the will of God in all things.
Nov 23 2014, 7:51 PM
Sister Susan Marie: Yes
Anne Marie r: I just read this meditation from FDS today: “Do not look forward to what may happen tomorrow. The same Everlasting Father, who takes care of you today, will take care of you tomorrow, and every day. He will either shield you from suffering or give you unfailing strength to bear it. Be at peace, then, and put aside all anxious thoughts and imaginations!”
Sister Susan Marie: But if we are not yet in uniformity, our goal is to be in conformity- and to know His Will is to ask for it, in many different areas of life
Sister Susan Marie: Thanks Anne Marie!
Nov 23 2014, 7:52 PM
Judy K: And we can reach the point where we have no will of our own, but only the will of God.
Sister Susan Marie: Yes I think so. Most of us are not there yet and life has so many curve balls as they say so we need to be in a real relationship with the Lord, not a theoretical one I guess
Judy K: I think that this is what is referred to as the “unitive” stage of the spiritual life.
Sister Susan Marie: We know our goal- uniformity. Now where are each of us in our spiritual development and how is God trying to help us grow
Sister Susan Marie: Yes, unitive. Most people are in purgative when they become conscious of a spiritual journey
Anne Marie : What do you mean? Purgative?
Nov 23 2014, 7:57 PM
Sister Susan Marie: The part of our spiritual journey when we consciously begin to try to avoid both serious and even venial sins and have no attachment to sinful habits. They are being purged away
Judy K: I certainly am not there yet. I desire it, and pray for it daily. And now it occurs to me that if we are in this “uniformity” with the will of God, we might not be inclined to ask for things that we want or think that we need, but rather simply trust that the Lord will provide for us all that we truly need.
Nov 23 2014, 7:58 PM
Sister Susan Marie: We become more conscious of God’s deep love for us
Anne Marie : Not there yet, either!
Sister Susan Marie: Most of us are not there yet!!
Sister Susan Marie: As we grow into a loving and real relationship with Jesus, we may even feel we have fallen in love with God. He is so real to us. Then I think we begin to move into other stages
Nov 23 2014, 8:01 PM
Judy K: And since we know how lovely, loving and glorious Jesus, why would we want anything other than His will.
Sister Susan Marie: That’s what is good about spiritual books-they help us to know a path, or someone’s path. But we will have our own too
Sister Susan Marie: Ok- let’s assume none of us are in the unitive way. How tho can we begin to understand better the will of God for us? How is it revealed then PM
Judy K: In intense prayer. Perhaps in the persistence of certain circumstances in our lives, for example, chronic illness. Here’s where that holy indifference comes in. In spite of such illness,we can still be in a state of contentment in the midst of suffering.
Sister Susan Marie: That’s very good- and not to revolt against the illness is a grace too
Judy K: Maybe we need to get into some Ignatian discernment for this. 8:06 PM
Nov 23 2014, 8:07 PM
Sister Susan Marie: Yes- St Francis de Sales studied under the Jesuits so there might be a connection someplace. Have you done Ignatian discernment?
Sister Susan Marie: I’d be interested in your take on ask for nothing…
Nov 23 2014, 8:10 PM
Judy K: I have not done it, but I watched a series on EWTN by Fr. Timothy Gallagher. It was quite a series. I should look back over my notes and make some effort to use the process. Hi Sister Mary Roberta
Judy K: And I think that discernment is related to this concept of asking and refusing nothing.
Mary Roberta Viano: We’re still using the will God gave us, but we’re using it according to the lights/guidance received from Him.
Nov 23 2014, 8:11 PM
Guest6518 (guest): Hi Sister Mary Roberta
Guest6518 (guest): I started to do the discernment but then was told to wait
Nov 23 2014, 8:12 PM
Anne Marie r: Well, I haven’t done this. I’ve been running from the Lord for years. It may be time to learn how to stop.
Judy K: Perhaps we need guidance in using the discernment techniques.
Mary Roberta Viano: Yes, spiritual directors come in very handy in any discernment. That’s what I discovered!
Guest6518 (guest): …until there was someone to lead me into into it
Judy K: Oh Anne Marie, do stop running and throw yourself into His loving arms!
Guest6518 (guest): I asked my confessor to be mine, but how to find one now that I have just moved?
Mary Roberta Viano: SFdS says,”O how excellent is the use of our will when it gives up all care to will and choose the effects of God’s good pleasure in order to praise and thank that good pleasure for such effects.” (TLG)
Nov 23 2014, 8:16 PM
Judy K: The trick, Sister Mary Roberta, is finding a spiritual director. For me it is difficult since I do not drive and cannot afford to take cabs on a regular basi
Mary Roberta Viano: If you’re online, Judy, you can receive direction that way, too. That’s my case at the moment since my director is super-busy teaching.
Judy K: H-m-m-m! That’s something I never thought about.
Mary Roberta Viano: either skyping, face-timing, or simple written correspondence back and forth
Nov 23 2014, 8:18 PM
Sister Susan Marie: Guest 6518, try your diocesan offices for a list of directors near you
Guest 6518, try your diocesan offices for a list of directors near you
Guest6518 (guest): Thank you Sister Susan Marie
Mary Roberta Viano: Our own Sr. Loretta Fahey is a registered spiritual director.
Sister Susan Marie: Would she do on-line? She is great I had her for retreat once.
Mary Roberta Viano: I think she’d probably do it online, but probably it would be good to call her and ask: 202-337-0305.
Sister Susan Marie: Would Sr do vocational discernment?
Mary Roberta Viano: It would be best to call and ask her.
Mary Roberta Viano: But even better might be to do what you’ve suggested in the But even better might be to do what you’ve suggested in the past: choose 5 houses and visit each for a short time.
Sister Susan Marie: Sometimes we rely on a spiritual director’s recommendation for a person discerning- I mean it is part of our consideration
Nov 23 2014, 8:23 PM
Mary Roberta Viano: In the end, it’s all about how each community prays and works together.
Sister Susan Marie: Outside of strictly vocational discernment direction can be very helpful as we grow in those early spiritual stages
Mary Roberta Viano: True. Someone who knows us and who is Christ-centered can be a help in vocational discernment.
Sister Susan Marie: Spiritual friendship is another gift that can help!
Nov 23 2014, 8:26 PM
Judy K: But spending time with the members of a community gives one a sense of whether there could be a fit there.
Nov 23 2014, 8:28 PM
Mary Roberta Viano: Right, Judy. I guess that’s the pragmatist in me.
PM
Judy K: That’s why it is so great that so many orders have what they call “Come and See” weekends or weeks. You really do need to taste the flavor of the comgregation.
Nov 23 2014, 8:29 PM
Mary Roberta Viano: But being guided slowly in a particular direction, toward a particular service, by a spritual director or friend is also important.
Nov 23 2014, 8:29 PM
Judy K: Uh, that should be “coNgregation.”
8:30 PM
Judy K: It’s not a case of either/or but of both/and.
Nov 23 2014, 8:30 PM
Mary Roberta Viano: See, Judy, you should be among the Paulists, who write and edit and have great bookstores!
1 PM
Mary Roberta Viano: In a letter SFdS said: “We take too much into consideration worldly policy and human prudence in those things which are wrought by the special grace of God.”
Nov 23 2014, 8:32 PM
Judy K: My goodness! I do love writing and have had some things published, but I am not up for a job or vocation at this stage of my life.
8:32 PM
Mary Roberta Viano: In other words, it’s all in His hands (He’s got the whole world…remember the song?!). 3 PM
Judy K: This has been a great chat. Thanks everyone for your thoughts and sharings. Have a very Happy (and grateful) Thanksgiving. His blessings be yours always.
Nov 23 2014, 8:33 PM
Mary Roberta Viano: So let’s entrust one into His Hands this coming week. Happy Thanksgiving!
Nov 23 2014, 8:33 PM
Anne Marie : Thy will be done, Lord!
Nov 23 2014, 8:33 PM
Anne Marie : Happy Thanksgiving. Thank you sisters.
Nov 23 2014, 8:34 PM
Guest6518 (guest): Happy Thanksgiving all!
Nov 23 2014, 8:34 PM
Sister Susan Marie: Blessing Thanksgivng to each of you!