Chatting about: Giving and Poverty


8 AM

Sister Susan Marie: Saint Francis states that God will give to us in return as a result of us giving. How can we distinguish this from a health-and-wealth gospel message so often heard from televangelists and the like? Connected with the first question: How do we give simply for the sake of giving? How do we avoid giving so as only to receive something from God in return? How do we find the balance? Saint Francis says, “everybody finds themselves sometimes deficient in what they need.”  Often in speaking of the rich and the poor we think only of material/temporal goods. What do you think about the reality of a mental or emotional poverty? The United States, as prosperous as it is, has one of the highest rates of suicide in the world. What does this tell us about different types of “poverty”?

 

Jan 8 2017, 12:14 AM

Ruth (guest): If any of you get here early enough to watch a 14 minute video, this, it seems to me, would fit in well with today’s topic and questions. Don’t worry, I did not Goggle “Physician Suicide” or anything of the sort. I found a link to it while browsing KevinMD. But I did lose at least one colleague to

Jan 8 2017, 12:15 AM

Ruth (guest): suicide. And another was killed by getting hit by a van.

Jan 8 2017, 12:16 AM

Ruth (guest): Here’s the link: http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2016/03/why-doctors-kill-themselves.html

Why doctors kill themselves

17, 7:24 PM

VisitationSiste: Our priest today spoke of Epiphany as “uncovering what is already there- like uncovering a mystery

 

Jan 8 2017, 7:25 PM

Carol Ann: Ours talked about how we should reflect on our own individual epiphany moments as well

:26 PM

Lisa C: I always feel that everything we know or learn is like that. God already knows everything and we just discover it.

Jan 8 2017, 7:26 PM

VisitationSiste: and also how Epiphany is celebrated in the Eastern rites as the major Feast of Christmas- not the 25th of Dec

7:26 PM

Lisa C: This is why truth is absolute.

Jan 8 2017, 7:27 PM

Lisa C: I think in many countries in Europe they give their gifts on Epiphany rather than Christmas.

1 PM

Guest7621 (guest): (Judy) Mother, any idea why in the Liturgy of the Hours it says that if Epiphany is celebrated on Sunday, the feast of the Baptism of the Lord is omitted and Ordinary Time begins on Monday,

Jan 8 2017, 7:31 PM

Ruth (guest): And it is still Christmas, although we took down the decorations after Mass today.

Jan 8 2017, 7:32 PM

Carol Ann: I thought we were celebrating Baptism of the Lord next week? some of the universal church reflections I get actually were positing it for today. Are we the only wing of the Chruch that transfers Epiphany to Sunday?

 

Jan 8 2017, 7:32 PM

VisitationSiste: No because tomorrow is the Baptism of the Lord!

 

Jan 8 2017, 7:32 PM

VisitationSiste: And the Church is celebrating it as far as I know

4 PM

VisitationSiste: They are challenging!

 

Jan 8 2017, 7:34 PM

Carol Ann: They’re getting harder because they require that we do some inner work to keep up

36 PM

Ruth (guest): I found that very interesting — the contrast you make, e.g., that we in the US are one of the richest nations AND have the highest suicide rate — pointing to a serious sort of poverty.

Jan 8 2017, 7:36 PM

VisitationSiste: It was just a few years ago I even heard of a health and wealth gospel

:37 PM

Ruth (guest): Part of the problem, I think, is that we, in the US, think we can control everything; poorer peoples recognize their dependence on one another and on God.

Jan 8 2017, 7:37 PM

Guest7621 (guest): (Judy) Question 1: the difference between the fact that God will reward us and the televangelists message of health and wealth. God will give to us in return as a result of our giving to others. while we know of this promise of the Lord, we should give to others, not looking for reward but solely from the goodness of our hearts. The televangelists tend to focus on the benefits to be gained rather than the motivation for giving.

Jan 8 2017, 7:37 PM

Carol Ann: It’s pretty popular. Sometimes it sounds like they are saying that when you pray, to expect that God will do whatever you ask, because you prayed right, or prayed big enough

8 PM

Lisa C: I think that might be kind of Old Testament-like. I find that Jewish people think God blesses them by giving them health and wealth. In the New Testament we know that our real reward is eternal life in Heaven8 PM

VisitationSiste: I terms of God giving us in return all I want usually is to know His will.

 

Jan 8 2017, 7:39 PM

Ruth (guest): Good observation, Judy.

0 PM

Ruth (guest): Yes, Sister, knowing a doing His will will make us happy, weather rich or poorPM

Lisa C: Do you think knowing God’s will is easier with small things than with large decisions?

Jan 8 2017, 7:41 PM

Carol Ann: That is why St Paul could be happy whatever his circumstances

 

Jan 8 2017, 7:41 PM

VisitationSiste: It is true tho that when saints prayed they usually received what they prayed for be it a healing or filling up the food pantry- you know what I mean Is that wealth so to speak

:42 PM

Guest7621 (guest): (Judy) Related to it is question 2. We give simply for the sake of giving when we focus on the act of giving rather than on any reward. The same with avoiding giving only to receive the reward. In both cases, it is keeping the focus on the giving and giving for the honor and glory of God and for love of Him. 3 PM

Lisa C: I find that when we are confronted with dealing with a small situation the commandments and catechism make God’s will pretty obvious, but with major life changing decisions it is harder to see sometimes.

Jan 8 2017, 7:43 PM

Carol Ann: In one way the focus of the giving Judy is talking about is on ourselves and what we are doing instead of on God and what he is doing’

2017, 7:45 PM

VisitationSiste: When we give it is inspired by the Holy Spirit, or can be5 PM

Ruth (guest): We receive what we ask for when it is clearly in the will of God. That doesn’t me He’s a vending machine : you put in this; get out that. I’ve even been receiving targeted ads for ministry programs — not Roman Catholic — with short training sessions so you can get licensed as a minister; AND ads for software to help increase the GIVING in your church. One “witness” to the usefulness of the software said something like: it even makes me feel like we are a REAL church!

Jan 8 2017, 7:45 PM

Guest7621 (guest): (Judy) I did not mean that focus is on us. The focus is on the act of giving and giving for the honor and glory and love of God.

Jan 8 2017, 7:45 PM

Ruth (guest): It’s become a big business!

, 7:47 PM

VisitationSiste: I think if we are in constant union with the Lord in thought and prayer all our actions stem from Him

 

Jan 8 2017, 7:47 PM

Dawn (guest): Hi everyone, Sr Susan Lisa Carol Anne Ruth and guests…our power just came on so I could come

2 PM

VisitationSiste: How do they do theat Dawn

 

Jan 8 2017, 7:53 PM

Guest7621 (guest): (Judy) I am wondering if a person gives solely for the purpose of receiving a reward from God, is the Lord not likely to give the reward? Does He not want us to give purely out of love for Him and others?

4 PM

Dawn (guest): well, in this community , and on social media…there is a following of certain pastors who are preaching only this…some very well known and I think you mentioned televangulists ( SP)

Jan 8 2017, 7:54 PM

VisitationSiste: Yes- all our actions should be done for love of God

 

Jan 8 2017, 7:54 PM

Ruth (guest): I think, even when we try to purify our intentions, and let God work in us to do what we cannot, we as humans, always have at least somewhat mixed motives. We are not perfect.

Jan 8 2017, 7:54 PM

Ruth (guest): We strive for perfection.

Jan 8 2017, 7:54 PM

Carol Ann: True Ruth

 

Jan 8 2017, 7:55 PM

Guest7621 (guest): (Judy) It’s kind of like little kids behaving before Christmas because the elf on the shelf is watching them rather than behaving for the sake of behaving.

PM

Ruth (guest): Be perfect as your Heavenly Father is perfect.

Jan 8 2017, 7:56 PM

Lisa C: I think many children actually want to be good

Jan 8 2017, 7:56 PM

Ruth (guest): That COULD be discouraging. But it remains something to reach for.

Jan 8 2017, 7:56 PM

VisitationSiste: Love the poor and poverty,–this love will make you truly poor, since, as Holy Scripture says, we become like to that we love.Love makes lovers equal. “ SFDS

PM

VisitationSiste: Love the poor and poverty,–this love will make you truly poor, since, as Holy Scripture says, we become like to that we love.Love makes lovers equal. “ SFDS

 

Jan 8 2017, 7:57 PM

VisitationSiste: Hello guest 5453

 

Jan 8 2017, 7:57 PM

Guest7621 (guest): (Judy) Hi 5453! Is that you Brian?

Jan 8 2017, 7:58 PM

VisitationSiste: if you are impoverished much or little by unforeseen events, such as storm, flood, fire, drought, theft, or lawsuit; then is the real time to practise poverty, accepting the loss quietly, and adapting yourself patiently to your altered circumstances. SFDS

8 PM

Ruth (guest): Forgive us our sins, as we forgive those who sin against us. That can be a scary sentence to pray. What about the predators? We pray for them, too — and somehow are at least in part HEALED of the wounds they’ve caused. :00 PM

VisitationSiste: I was just thinking about the emotional poverty- many suffer from thatPM

Ruth (guest): Sister — SFCS came from wealth and privilege; I think there are times when one must appeal an unjust judgement, for example, and times when one should capitulate. The people who flourish AFTER fire, flood, drought don’t always just “accept the loss patiently.” They get up and DO what is necessary to minimize or reverse or overcome the dama

Ev-Bernadette

 

Guest5453

4 PM

Guest7621 (guest): (Judy) Re mental and emotional poverty. Mental poverty, that is deficiency in intellect, and emotional poverty which comes from psychiatric disorder, both hamper the ability of the person to function in society. those mentally imnpoverished may find themselves limited in what they can do with their lives. those with emotional poverty may be helped to achieve better functioning with the help of therapy and/or medication.

Jan 8 2017, 8:04 PM

VisitationSiste: Hello Ev-Bernadette

 

Jan 8 2017, 8:06 PM

Ruth (guest): And sometimes injustices are so flagrant that one HAS to — if one is to LIVE LOVE — cry out, even use the Press, to right a wrong: human trafficking, e.g., or the failure of the US Government to allow immigration of Muslims, EVEN those who served at risk of their own lives, for the US Military.

Jan 8 2017, 8:06 PM

Ev-Bernadette: I was watching Mother Angelica’s Classics & a caller had such a hard time forgiving the man that raped her. Mother said that this is a normal reaction for such a traumatic crisis…but Jesus still said we had to forgive , even our enemies. So she told her that we must go in front of the Blessed Sacrament & tell Him how we feel & that you want to forgive as He asks this of us, but you need help. I, myself beli6

PM

Guest7621 (guest): The overall prosperity of the nation does not necessarily result in prosperity for each individual citizen. In fact it probably has nothing to do with it. Those with an extremely severe emotional poverty may be more likely to commit suicide. This can happen at any strata of society. We need to be aware that poverty is not only material but can affect the wealthy as well. They can also be affected by a lack of love and attention, or a seeming lack because of two working parents.

Jan 8 2017, 8:08 PM

Lisa C: Do you think that the person who asks Jesus to help them forgive has forgiven by the intent of wanting to forgive, and what is really left is normal anger?

Jan 8 2017, 8:09 PM

Guest7621 (guest): (Judy) Good point, Lisa!

Jan 8 2017, 8:10 PM

Guest7621 (guest): (Judy) Hello Ev-Bernadette.

Jan 8 2017, 8:11 PM

Ruth (guest): Forgiving helps us to heal. But it is not the same as saying it was OK. It wasn’t. It is not the same, even as “just accepting” the consequences; the whole business of tort law is built on this notion.

2 PM

Ruth (guest): “Normal” anger, or righteous anger is given to us, it seems, to energize. It’s scary because it CAN energize in the wrong way. That’s why Jesus says, Do not let your anger cause you to sin.

Jan 8 2017, 8:13 PM

Guest7621 (guest): (Judy) How did we get from mental and emotional poverty to forgiveness and anger?

Jan 8 2017, 8:13 PM

Ev-Bernadette: Believe in this as I have had hard times forgiving, but my situations were not as traumatic but nevertheless I did have difficulties in forgiving, due to hurt, as well as PRIDE! I would tell Jesus to forgive them for me as I just couldn6bring myself to do it…within a few weeks at most I found myself asking forgiveness to those that hurt me! This had to be Our Lord giving me that prompting. I asking forgiveness to the ones that hurt me…believe it or not, I really felt I had to ask for their forgiveness.

14 PM

Ruth (guest): I think they go hand in hand.

Jan 8 2017, 8:14 PM

Ev-Bernadette: Hi everyone, I was on for quite awhile but did not realize I was not signed in correctly…LOL

 

Jan 8 2017, 8:14 PM

VisitationSiste: That’s chat for you Judy- goes places we never went before?

 

Jan 8 2017, 8:14 PM

Guest7621 (guest): (Judy) That is truly awesome, Ev-Bernadette

8 PM

Guest7621 (guest): (Judy) Ruth, I suppose that someone with emotional poverty may have difficulty forgiving, or in controlling anger.

Jan 8 2017, 8:19 PM

Ev-Bernadette: But to forgive does not mean that the hurt just disappears, twinge will pop up…I just quick3try to not dwell on it. Remember that painful past hurts leave scars but with Jesus’ help it starts to diminish.

 

Jan 8 2017, 8:19 PM

Ruth (guest): Yes, sometimes we contribute to causing the hurt we experience as from another. But there are truly innocent sufferers, too. Think for instance, of a child who repeatedly suffers incest from her father (or a priest!) — and he gives her/him material “benefits” for keeping his/her mouth shut.

Jan 8 2017, 8:19 PM

Carol Ann: Sometimes the handicap that causes the emotional poverty is neurological and cannot be helped by meds. In this case, is the person carrying a cross for Christ?

 

Jan 8 2017, 8:20 PM

Ruth (guest): Whew! Some tough questions.

Jan 8 2017, 8:20 PM

Guest7621 (guest): (Judy) I think that one has to have the intention of carrying such a cross for Jesus

1 PM

Ruth (guest): I guess it partly depends on what you mean by “carrying a cross for Christ”

Jan 8 2017, 8:21 PM

Ev-Bernadette: I feel that all suffering that we cannot help is a cross, no matter how trivial it may be.

8 2017, 8:22 PM

VisitationSiste: Reading the saints can help give courage in facing one’s cross2 PM

Carol Ann: Well, we all have individual crosses to carry. some are physical, like cerebral palsy. Others are interior and not so obvious, like someone who has a disorder caused by brain chemistry that we don’t know how to fix. Neither one is chosen by the individual, but are still crosses to bear/23 PM

Guest7621 (guest): (Judy) Without the intentionality of bearing a suffering in union with Jesus and therefore carrying the cross for Him, it is mere patient endurance.

Jan 8 2017, 8:23 PM

Ev-Bernadette: To ask Jesus to carry a cross for Him is very, very hard…one must have the Grace from the Holy Spirit to do so. I find this so frightful to ask!

 

Jan 8 2017, 8:23 PM

VisitationSiste: We all have something and Jesus is there to help us

8:23 PM

Lisa C: All are suffering, but to be a cross it has to be united to Jesus’ suffering and offered to Him, I think.

Jan 8 2017, 8:24 PM

VisitationSiste: We are told esrly in religious life not to ask for a cross because they will com

:24 PM

VisitationSiste: We are told esrly in religious life not to ask for a cross because they will come

 

Jan 8 2017, 8:24 PM

Ruth (guest): We had a ministry in one of my previous parishes, St. Frances de Chantel, in Wantagh, NY. A ministry of praise. People who had serious chronic ailments were particularly invited to participate — to “offer up” their sufferings and handicaps — for the needs of the parish. It did amazing things for the parish and for those who thereby became much more “active” (in this case “contemplative”) members of the parish. Everyone has something to contribute.

Jan 8 2017, 8:24 PM

Carol Ann: like praying for humility…ask for it, and you will receive!

 

Jan 8 2017, 8:25 PM

VisitationSiste: But of course each soul is different so spiritual direction can help if indeed we are bold enough in the Spirit to ask for a cross or help carry someone elsse’s burden

8:25 PM

Ev-Bernadette: So very true Sister!

 

Jan 8 2017, 8:25 PM

VisitationSiste: That’s beautiful Ruth. Did you know that parish made a pilgrimage to our Monastery in 2002?

5 PM

VisitationSiste: But of course each soul is different so spiritual direction can help if indeed we are bold enough in the Spirit to ask for a cross or help carry someone elsse’s burden

 

Jan 8 2017, 8:25 PM

Ev-Bernadette: So very true Sister!

 

Jan 8 2017, 8:25 PM

VisitationSiste: That’s beautiful Ruth. Did you know that parish made a pilgrimage to our Monastery in 2002?

 

Jan 8 2017, 8:26 PM

VisitationSiste: I believe it was their 50th anniversary

 

Jan 8 2017, 8:26 PM

Guest7621 (guest): (Judy) God definitely writes straight with crooked lines!

Jan 8 2017, 8:26 PM

Ruth (guest): Lisa, the reason I said, “It depends on what you mean by a cross” is that SOME people believe that a “cross” is only that suffering which comes as a result of witnessing to the Gospel. Some say it is any suffering which, by intention, is united to the sufferings of Christ.

PM

Ruth (guest): Lisa, the reason I said, “It depends on what you mean by a cross” is that SOME people believe that a “cross” is only that suffering which comes as a result of witnessing to the Gospel. Some say it is any suffering which, by intention, is united to the sufferings of Christ.

Jan 8 2017, 8:26 PM

Lisa C: If a cross it God’s will it will be given to us, and if it is not, asking for one will probably not cause one to come. We probably should just accept with God gives us.

PM

Lisa C: what not with

Jan 8 2017, 8:28 PM

Ruth (guest): Yes, I think I did know it, Sister. You must have told me. It was some time before I visited Visitation Monastery.

M

Ev-Bernadette: True Lisa. I guess to endure our difficulties with resignation and if possible fix what we can with prayer and calmness…the Little Way! Like Sr. Franchoise Therese followed in her sister’site writings!

 

Jan 8 2017, 8:29 PM

Guest7621 (guest): (Judy) Mother, could you investigate if there is a way that I can begin to sign in as myself again?

7, 8:31 PM

Ruth (guest): That sounds about right, sister. I moved to Wantagh in 1952 and immediately belonged to that parish — long before we had any buildings. We met in a firehouse and in a school gym at first, and then in a

Jan 8 2017, 8:31 PM

VisitationSiste: I will check with webmaster

31 PM

Guest7621 (guest): (Judy) At this point, I don’t remember what the problem is. I just know that I am not able to sign in as myself.

Jan 8 2017, 8:31 PM

VisitationSiste: ok I can share your e mail with webmaster?

32 PM

Ruth (guest): “temporary” church — which was burned down by an arson while I was living in Europe. The present church building, beautiful, sprang up on the ashes./

Jan 8 2017, 8:32 PM

 

One Response to “Chatting about: Giving and Poverty”

  1. Dawn says:

    Appreciate the chat being copied to read! it helps to keep up if we miss, or if someone desires to know what is talked about.
    in my case, I was booted off chat as the power went out again…beautiful winter!
    Dawn

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