Visitation Spirit

Chatting about: Penitence and Repentance

by | Feb 5, 2018 | Discernment Sundays - Chat Room, Salesian Spirituality, St. Francis de Sales

Repentance that does not reject love of God, although it may lack it, is good, but imperfect. But if it did not progress to a holy love of God in some degree, it would profit us nothing for everlasting life. When does repentance become penitence? What types of repentance have no supernatural value?
What is the difference between imperfect and perfect penitence?
To what must imperfect penitence lead if it is to avail us to eternal life?

Feb 4, 7:26 PM

SrSusan (Guest): Hi Judy

Feb 4, 7:27 PM

SrSusan (Guest): Hi Viewer

Feb 4, 7:27 PM

SrSusan (Guest): And Carol Ann

Feb 4, 7:28 PM

Carol Ann: Hi Sr. Susan, Hi Judy

Feb 4, 7:28 PM

Carroll V (Guest): Good evening everyone!

Feb 4, 7:28 PM

SrSusan (Guest): Welcome CarrollV

Feb 4, 7:29 PM

Judy (Guest): Hi Mother, we missed you last week. Is it me, or does St. Francis have a style of writing that is sometimes circular. I mean that sometimes his sentences seem to go around in circles and I have a rough time figuring out what he is saying. this week’s offering was particularly difficult. Hi Carol Ann and Carroll.

Feb 4, 7:30 PM

Judy (Guest): Missed you last week, Carol Ann. How is everything in California?

Feb 4, 7:30 PM

SrSusan (Guest): Yes St Francis writing can be lengthy and I guesss circular is a good way of saying it

Feb 4, 7:31 PM

SrSusan (Guest): Glad to be here this week

Feb 4, 7:31 PM

Judy (Guest): I sometimes feel that he is making things more difficult than they need to be.

Feb 4, 7:31 PM

Carol Ann: We are still cleaning up, and will be for years. State is handling roads, bridges, debris basins. The Bucket Brigades are handling private property. Tons and tons and tons of contaminated mud everywhere. no more rain, so it is drying up, blowing around and causing respiratory problems now

Feb 4, 7:32 PM

Judy (Guest): Oh my! How difficult this must be for you!

Feb 4, 7:33 PM

Judy (Guest): Glad that you are with us, Mother.

Feb 4, 7:33 PM

Carroll V (Guest): Judy- I think I know what you mean... sometimes it seems like he is repeating himself; nhowever, I find myself using a dictionary and realizing there are subtle differences in the meanings of the words that actually have significant meaning for me...

Feb 4, 7:33 PM

Carol Ann: every single person in two counties is suffering some degree of ptsd, all at the same time

Feb 4, 7:34 PM

Ruth (Guest): Hello Sr. Susan, Carol Ann, Caroll V, Judy. I may be a little distracted. I’m baking. And I am very, very tired and achy.

Feb 4, 7:34 PM

SrSusan (Guest): The language has changed and first of all it is translated from French and probably old French at that

Feb 4, 7:34 PM

Carol Ann: Hi Ruth! What are you baking?

Feb 4, 7:36 PM

Ruth (Guest): Pizza.

Feb 4, 7:37 PM

SrSusan (Guest): Yum!

Feb 4, 7:37 PM

Carol Ann: mmm, i can smell it all the way out here!

Feb 4, 7:37 PM

Ruth (Guest): So sorry, Carol Ann, about the stress, disease, etc. The mud is toxic?

Feb 4, 7:37 PM

SrSusan (Guest): Nothing to repent about re pizza!

Feb 4, 7:38 PM

SrSusan (Guest): But the season of Lent is coming when we do repent!

Feb 4, 7:39 PM

Judy (Guest): This is the first time I have ever seen a difference made between penitance and repentance. I think that repentance become penitance when the love of God becomes the reason and source of repentance. Without the love of God, it would remain repentance. Repentance that exclueds the love of God is deemed “infernal like to that of the damned.“ Repentance that does not reject the love of God, although it is without it, is an imperfect repentance.

Feb 4, 7:41 PM

Judy (Guest): If our penitance were so great as to move us to tears and broken hearts, it would profit nothing for eternal life until we have the love of God.

Feb 4, 7:41 PM

SrSusan (Guest): Yes it was interesting to say the least- one always hopes sorrow counts for something

Feb 4, 7:41 PM

Carol Ann: Yes. the bucketeers are all decked out in goggles and masks when they work

Feb 4, 7:41 PM

Judy (Guest): Why would there be an absence of the love God unless it had been rejected?

Feb 4, 7:42 PM

SrSusan (Guest): can a non believer have repentance or penitance then- sounds like no

Feb 4, 7:42 PM

Carol Ann: yes, those who are digging must wear protective clothing, goggles and masks. and sign a waiver

Feb 4, 7:42 PM

SrSusan (Guest): lack of knowledge

Feb 4, 7:44 PM

SrSusan (Guest): i think there is some human instinct of sorrow

Feb 4, 7:45 PM

Judy (Guest): Could that be related to repentance?

Feb 4, 7:46 PM

Carol Ann: is the distinction be like what we ask children-–are you sorry you hurt someone or are you sorry you got caught?

Feb 4, 7:46 PM

Carroll V (Guest): Judy- I think of the truest, purest love of God (the love of Him purely because of His goodness and not because I am trying to save myself) as being something we grow into through grace... So, there can be an absence of the purest love of God without rejecting...

Feb 4, 7:47 PM

Carroll V (Guest): just not mature yet, growing by grace

Feb 4, 7:48 PM

Judy (Guest): And Mother said that it could be caused by lack of knowledge.

Feb 4, 7:48 PM

SrSusan (Guest): good point Carroll

Feb 4, 7:48 PM

SrSusan (Guest): And true every time we ask a child if they are sorry we do not always mention their relation to God

Feb 4, 7:49 PM

Ruth (Guest): Interesting distinction Carol Ann.

Feb 4, 7:50 PM

Ruth (Guest): And I have also heard parents or teachers say: “Tell him you are sorry!“ The kid repeats the words but doesn’t MEAN it.

Feb 4, 7:50 PM

Judy (Guest): Does that mean that there can be no true repentance without the purest love of God?

Feb 4, 7:51 PM

SrSusan (Guest): That’s what it sounds like

Feb 4, 7:51 PM

Carol Ann: because they don’t know why they should be sorry? no true understanding of the short or long term consequences of what they did

Feb 4, 7:53 PM

Ruth (Guest): Good thing we have the Sacrament of Reconciliation! Imperfect penitence is through the Sacrament sufficient –– along with the “assigned” penance –– for forgiveness.

Feb 4, 7:54 PM

Judy (Guest): Question 2 Imperfect penitence does not yet have the love of God and is unable to give salvation. Perfect penitence is felled with the love of God and is the motive for making reparation.

Feb 4, 7:54 PM

Carroll V (Guest): I know there have been times when I have received the grace to feel gut-wrenchingly repentant for sins and I have earnestly resolved to sin no more and to make reparation,... yet initially failed in that resolve...

Feb 4, 7:54 PM

Judy (Guest): IsFilled not felled.

Feb 4, 7:55 PM

Ruth (Guest): SFdS adds another term, CONTRITION, which seems to be, if I understood it correctly penitence with love of God.

Feb 4, 7:56 PM

Judy (Guest): I think that contrition, for it to be true contrition, must be paired with a firm purpose of amendment.

Feb 4, 7:58 PM

SrSusan (Guest): definitely

Feb 4, 7:58 PM

Carroll V (Guest): Significant changes took time- even years of the most sincere participation in the Sacraments I could muster...

Feb 4, 7:59 PM

Ruth (Guest): I remember once expressing a firm purpose of amendment (I really, really meant it) and the priest warned me, as if to try to head off my becoming discouraged, that I’d probably fail again in my good intention.

Feb 4, 7:59 PM

SrSusan (Guest): where does mercy fit into this i wonder

Feb 4, 7:59 PM

Carroll V (Guest): pre-beginning- ... beginning... middle... and end!

Feb 4, 8:00 PM

Judy (Guest): God’s mercy is ever present to us. Even if our penitence is imperfect, He still extends His mercy to us and forgives us.

Feb 4, 8:00 PM

Carol Ann: is that failure, Ruth, like what St Paul called the thorn in his flesh, to remind us that we need grace? Else we might be tempted to think we did it ourselves with our own firm purpose?

Feb 4, 8:01 PM

Carroll V (Guest): I am just so grateful for the grace to “stay in the conversation,“ trusting our good God.

Feb 4, 8:02 PM

Judy (Guest): I suspect that even imperfect penitence comes from the grace of God.

Feb 4, 8:03 PM

SrSusan (Guest): i agree

Feb 4, 8:04 PM

Judy (Guest): And it is His grace that enables us to progress from imperfect penitence to perfect penitence and than to repentence.

Feb 4, 8:04 PM

SrSusan (Guest): since the TREATISE is about love of God all the points the saint makes eventually lead to Love

Feb 4, 8:04 PM

Ruth (Guest): I don’t know Carol Ann.

Feb 4, 8:05 PM

Judy (Guest): And this grace is given to us out of the love of God for us. And we must respond to it out of pure love for Him.

Feb 4, 8:05 PM

SrSusan (Guest): and God’s grace is His Love

Feb 4, 8:06 PM

SrSusan (Guest): He must be sending us always all that we need for repentance and penitaence but like evrything else we need to accept it

Feb 4, 8:06 PM

SrSusan (Guest): and let it work on our hearts so they love

Feb 4, 8:07 PM

SrSusan (Guest): Since eternal life is a life of purest love all things tend to preparing us for that

Feb 4, 8:07 PM

SrSusan (Guest): anyway that’s what I am thinking

Feb 4, 8:07 PM

Carroll V (Guest): Judy- I just keep doing my best to respond and trust that eventually He will make my response purely out of love for Him

Feb 4, 8:08 PM

Ruth (Guest): I heard a CD recently, a young, sort of hip priest, talking mostly to young people. The last thing in the world he thought he’d become was a priest. He was the “wild” one. Well, the one bit of advice he gave the young people: Attend Mass at least every Sunday, AND go to Confession often. That’s how God managed to zap him.

Feb 4, 8:09 PM

Judy (Guest): Love is as necessary as breath. Think of St. Paul’s words in Corinthians 13-–many virtues are worth nothing without love. And so we must try always to kindle in us a deeper love, and strive always to act out of love.

Feb 4, 8:09 PM

Carroll V (Guest): “zap”– I like that!

Feb 4, 8:09 PM

SrSusan (Guest): Because so many people don’t do what we once considered basic as Christians the zapping may be even stronger

Feb 4, 8:11 PM

Judy (Guest): Question 3 Imperfect penitence must lead us to be wholly possessed of and captivated by God’s love and that love motivates our every action

Feb 4, 8:12 PM

SrSusan (Guest): and leads us to union with God and then His love and ours begins to be one

Feb 4, 8:13 PM

Carol Ann: St Francis seems to be saying that we must never stay stagnant. once we have accepted and live one grace we must always be ready and open to receive the next and the next

Feb 4, 8:13 PM

Ruth (Guest): In the Act of Contrition as I learned it we say: . . . I am heartily sorry because I dread the loss of heaven, but most of because they (my sins) offend the my God, who art all good and deserving of all my LOVE. So even if the love is not completely there, not developed or mature, there is the acknowledgement that God has a right to our love.

Feb 4, 8:14 PM

Judy (Guest): I have a mental image of an altar and each of us is called to place ourselves upon that altar, and stretch ourselves out opening out hearts completely to receive all that the Lord wishes to give us. It is an altar of sacrifice upon which we are offering ourselves unreservedly to God.

Feb 4, 8:15 PM

Ruth (Guest): Opps, “loss of heaven and pains of hell, but most of all . . .“

Feb 4, 8:16 PM

Carol Ann: both are present in the prayers we are taught as children, but we must always remember the meaning behind the words

Feb 4, 8:17 PM

Ruth (Guest): I once had a dream in which a Rabbi I know, a good man who was having a lot of troubles –– or shall we say “challenges” in his life –– was on a cross, crucified with Christ . . .

Feb 4, 8:17 PM

Judy (Guest): Loss of heaven means loss of God and that is tragic.

Feb 4, 8:18 PM

Carroll V (Guest): That’s beautiful Judy- ... There is a sentence in Book XXI: “But if we do not repulse the grace of holy love, it dilates itselfby continual increasein our souls, until they are totally converted;...“ I pray that none of us ever repulse His grace!

Feb 4, 8:19 PM

Ruth (Guest): Carol Ann, I am so grateful for the prayers, and even for Baltimore Catechism No 2. I may not have understood it when I memorized it; but the content, and the words, came to mind –– many times –– when I most needed it.

Feb 4, 8:20 PM

Carol Ann: i think that is why we were made to memorize it, so that they would indeed save us in a crisis, being what we naturally fall back on. as long as we didn’t replace it with something worldly

Feb 4, 8:20 PM

Judy (Guest): St. Augustine has said in an oft cited quote that “You have made us for Yourself, O Lord, and our hearts are restless until they rest in You.“ And so we strive for true repentance so that we can rest in Jesus for all eternity.

Feb 4, 8:21 PM

Ruth (Guest): That is why Ursula, a friend, also urged me to memorize many Scripture verses. How helpful that can be!

Feb 4, 8:22 PM

Carol Ann: what is in your heart is what comes out of you, so we must be careful to only put good things in

Feb 4, 8:23 PM

SrSusan (Guest): Especially watch those images- they stay implanted

Feb 4, 8:24 PM

Judy (Guest): I love the words of the psalmist: “O God, You are my God. For You I long. For You my soul is thirsting. My body pines for You like a dry weary land without water.“

Feb 4, 8:24 PM

Carroll V (Guest): Carol Ann, that must be challenging when you are witnessing so much trauma now.

Feb 4, 8:24 PM

Ruth (Guest): Yes. I like that expression you quote, Carroll V: . . . it dilates itself . . . I picture that sort of like a plant pushing its way through rock and blooming.

Feb 4, 8:25 PM

Carol Ann: yes. i spoke with a therapist who specializes in ptsd today who is stretched as to breaking. we are all struggling to stay centered. but i have my collections on pinterest and if i go blank i can go find one

Feb 4, 8:27 PM

Judy (Guest): May the Lord send the sunshine of His love upon the state of California and all of its people, to warm their hearts and dry up all the muck and mud so that they can resume a normal life.

Feb 4, 8:27 PM

Carroll V (Guest): When I see people in pain, it helps me to picture something in my mind like the blood of Jesus or Our Blessed Mother’s mantle wrapped around the person.

Feb 4, 8:27 PM

Carol Ann: oh, amen to that, and may He help us find the two children who are still missing

Feb 4, 8:28 PM

Judy (Guest): How long have these children been missing?

Feb 4, 8:29 PM

Carol Ann: since the flood

Feb 4, 8:29 PM

Ruth (Guest): My experience with Flight 800, as volunteer psychiatrist to the relatives at the Ramada Inn –– all passengers died when it went down off the coast of Long Island –– was that the relatives, for the most part, offered a lot of support to one another. It was the Red Cross volunteers and the Airline people who seemed to suffer the most.

Feb 4, 8:29 PM

Judy (Guest): That does not bode well. May the Lord strengthen the families to prepare them for whatever may come to be.

Feb 4, 8:31 PM

SrSusan (Guest): We join you in prayer for these children and for all the follow up to these disasters. You are in the forefront Carol Anne but we are with you

Feb 4, 8:31 PM

Carroll V (Guest): ... so many hurting hearts in such desperate need of the Love of God!

Feb 4, 8:31 PM

SrSusan (Guest): Yes Love Him for them until they find Him in their souls

Feb 4, 8:32 PM

Carol Ann: one of our parishioners think they may be in her property somewhere, which is still buried in 6 feet of mud. they live upstream from her. 93 years old, survived two hours in the rain atop a 6 foot pile of debris.

Feb 4, 8:32 PM

SrSusan (Guest): May you each have a graced week as we keep each other in heart and prayer

Feb 4, 8:32 PM

Carol Ann: thank you for all your help, Sr. Susan!

Feb 4, 8:32 PM

Judy (Guest): May the week ahead be filled with graces and blessings in abundance. And may that pure love of God overtake all of us. Good night all!

Feb 4, 8:32 PM

Carol Ann: May God bless us every one

Feb 4, 8:33 PM

Carroll V (Guest): Wow- what a beautiful idea, Sr. Susan- ... Good night everyone. Thanks for being here!

Feb 4, 8:35 PM

Ruth (Guest): Thank you everyone, and special prayers for those in S. California, trying to recover from the fires and floods. Pain shared seems to be halved; its different from suffering alone; people understand one another’s pain. God does, too. He became like us in all things but sin.

Feb 4, 8:36 PM

Ruth (Guest): Let us turn to Him in all our needs.