VisitationSiste: Questions to Ponder: Based on the current reflection, is purity restricted to chastity, or is there more to it? It is clear, as St. Francis said, that “no unlawful passions are compatible with chastity.” However, what do you make of the fact that he then tells us that we should “strive to avoid unduly fixing your heart even on that which in itself is right and good”? How might this current reflection complement (or shed light on) what Our Lord teaches us about His mission on earth: VisitationSiste: “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them” (Matthew 5:17)?
Guest3210 (guest): He is the King of Kings and Lord of Lords and we should indeed rejoice because we will celebrate His coming among us in two weeks.
Dec 11 2016, 7:28 PM
Guest3210 (guest): Oops. I left out a phrase of the song–after But He’s just another baby I suppose” should be “Heaven knows!”
Dec 11 2016, 7:28 PM
The story of Christmas—as narrated by hilarious child parishioners (VIDEO) – For Her
Dec 11 2016, 7:29 PM
Guest3210 (guest): The print looks different because it’s grey instead of black. Makes reading a bit more difficult
Dec 11 2016, 7:29 PM
Lisa C: This is a cute version of Christmas as told by children. At the end they really get the meaning.
Dec 11 2016, 7:30 PM
Lisa C: It is so sweet.
Dec 11 2016, 7:30 PM
Guest3210 (guest): It’s snowing here in West Haverstraw so it’s beginning to look a lot like Christmas.
Dec 11 2016, 7:30 PM
Lisa C: Mother popped out
Dec 11 2016, 7:32 PM
Guest3210 (guest): Another tough group of questions!! My answers are brief since I had a hard time figuring out what to say.
Dec 11 2016, 7:33 PM
Lisa C: I liked the questions this week.
Dec 11 2016, 7:33 PM
Lisa C: They were very biblical
SrSusan (guest): The question goes beyond chastity to purity of hear- to singlemindedness for God I think
7:36 PM
Guest3210 (guest): Question 1 Is purity restricted to chastity, or is there more to it.? The dictionary defines purity as free from contmination, clean or spotless, untainted with evil or guilt. St. FdeS says that there is no beauty without purity. We speak of pure water, with no contamination-how beautiful and clear it is! Purity of mind-uncontaminated by evil thoughts, desires or plans; purity of intention-acting for the purpose of pleasing God, or at least acting out of goodness.
Dec 11 2016, 7:37 PM
Lisa C: ? Being pure of heart is what purity really is. Matt 5: 8 Blessed are the pure in heart, for they will see God. Pure in the original Greek in Matthew = Kartharos = clean, blameless, unstained from guilt, also purified by fire or by pruning. This sounds like what Jesus does for us. Makes us blameless, by being a sacrifice for our sins, but then we have to be purified by fire (Malachi 3:2ut who can endure the day of his coming, and who can stand when he appears? For he is like a refiner’s fire and li
Dec 11 2016, 7:37 PM
Carol Ann: It would be chastity in all things
Dec 11 2016, 7:37 PM
Lisa C: and like fullers’ soap.) and pruned (John 15 “I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. 2 He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes[a] so that it will be even more fruitful. 3 You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. 4 Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.).
41 PM
Guest3210 (guest): Imagine if everything in the world were pure, uncontaminated–the water, the forests, the roads, the air, the minds and hearts of people! What a truly beautiful world it would be. The world as God intended it to be!
Dec 11 2016, 7:41 PM
Lisa C: It would be the garden of eden
7:41 PM
Lisa C: The perfect place God gave us to livePM
Guest113 (guest): Just finished four day Kairos Retreat in Prison ! Amazing ! Praise God and thank you all for prayers !
Dec 11 2016, 7:42 PM
Guest3210 (guest): I don’t know if it would be the Garden of Eden. We would have progresses beyond that garden by now. But our cities would be beautiful, not full of dirt as they are now
:43 PM
Ruth (guest): Wonderful ministry you have Brian!
Dec 11 2016, 7:43 PM
Carol Ann: If the world were still pure, it would be a land flowing with milk and honey, as God always promises
Dec 11 2016, 7:44 PM
Lisa C: In Eden we were in friendship with God. There was nothing else to progress toward.
Dec 11 2016, 7:44 PM
Ruth (guest): Good point Lisa. Shows you know what we are here for.
Dec 11 2016, 7:45 PM
45 PM
Carol Ann: is an interesting point. The aim of our existence is union with God, but we are also speaking in a human, linear history when we speak of progress
Dec 11 2016, 7:46 PM
Lisa C: Pure of heart shall see God……Adam and Eve were made pure of heart until they changed
Dec 11 2016, 7:46 PM
Lisa C: They saw God
Dec 11 2016, 7:46 PM
Lisa C: They were with Him
Dec 11 2016, 7:46 PM
Guest3210 (guest): Yes we were in friendship with God. But we would have followed God’s command to increase and multiply, fill the earth and subdue it. So there would have to have been societal progress to provide for all these people.
Dec 11 2016, 7:46 PM
Guest113 (guest): Years ago I saw a PBS show . A group was searching for place in Africa that had not been impacted by humans . After years of searching they found place . The animals had no fear of humans it was like viewing Garden of Eden
Dec 11 2016, 7:46 PM
Ruth (guest): Purity, in this context, means, I think — wanting ONE thing — not a thing but to Praise God Rightly — with words and deeds — ABOVE ALL ELSE.
Dec 11 2016, 7:47 PM
Lisa C: I do not think in the garden we had to work or provide. It was all there for the taking.
7:47 PM
Lisa C: If Adam and Eve had not sinned they would not have had to provide for their children.
Dec 11 2016, 7:48 PM
Lisa C: Work was a punishment for sin.
:48 PM
Carol Ann: work is not a punishment in the catechism? Work is necessary for human dignity
Dec 11 2016, 7:48 PM
Guest3210 (guest): If they were told to subdue the earth, there would have been work involved, but it would not have been the kind of hard labor that we know today.
Dec 11 2016, 7:48 PM
Lisa C: In Genesis it is a punishment.
Dec 11 2016, 7:48 PM
SrSusan (guest): Purity of heart was lost when the first parents took their eyes and hearts off God and onto the serpent
2016, 7:49 PM
Lisa C: In the sinful world work is necessary
49 PM
Guest3210 (guest): In fact, they would have found work pleasurable.
49 PM
Carol Ann: childbirth pain is a punishment, oh wait i recall that passage now. do you know what the church teaches about that, Sr.?
Dec 11 2016, 7:49 PM
Ruth (guest): Interesting point Lisa, because now we think of work as a right and for prisoners a privilege. Who knows.
Dec 11 2016, 7:50 PM
Lisa C: But when Jesus sends the apostles out in Matthew he tells them not to take anything with them. God provides everything we need, if we trust Him. Maybe the vow of poverty is about trusting God.
Dec 11 2016, 7:51 PM
Carol Ann: the vow of poverty is all about trusting God
Dec 11 2016, 7:51 PM
Lisa C: Maybe if we are pure of heart we go back to Eden and all we need to do is love. Love becomes our work.
Dec 11 2016, 7:51 PM
Guest3210 (guest): Yes, Lisa, it definitely is about trusting God.
Dec 11 2016, 7:51 PM
Ruth (guest): I agree Guest 3210 (Judy?). And we are blessed when our work gives us at least satisfaction if not pleasure. Perhaps even joy.
Dec 11 2016, 7:52 PM
Guest3210 (guest): 3210 Yep, that
Dec 11 2016, 7:52 PM
Lisa C: How might this current reflection complement (or shed light on) what Our Lord teaches us about His mission on earth: “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them” (Matthew 5:17)?
Dec 11 2016, 7:52 PM
Guest3210 (guest): that’s me (Judy), Ruth.
Dec 11 2016, 7:52 PM
Lisa C: All of the commandments are contained in love. Love fulfills the law.Romans 13:8 Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for whoever loves others has fulfilled the law. 9 The commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not covet,”[a] and whatever other command there may be, are summed up in this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”[10 Love does no harm to a neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillm
Dec 11 2016, 7:52 PM
Lisa C: Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.
Dec 11 2016, 7:53 PM
Guest113 (guest): Work is an opportunity to express our gifts ! Don’t bury your gifts !
53 PM
Ruth (guest): And that is what the theological virtue of HOPE is — dreaming big and trusting God. It is not just optimism. We see it in today’s readings.
Dec 11 2016, 7:54 PM
SrSusan (guest): Eve would bear children in pain but her desire would be for her husband- something like that Carol
55 PM
Carol Ann: seems we have once again hit a dichotomy where we are trying to describe heaven when we really don’t know. Eye has not seen, ear has not heard the wonders in store for us. It is natural though to imagine our world with no sorrow or woe as heaven.
Dec 11 2016, 7:55 PM
Guest3210 (guest): Jesus came to fulfill the law, to purify it, if you will, so that it is in line with the New Covenant of love, so that it leads to sanctification rather than condemnation, to the joy of an intimate and warm relationship with the Lord, rather that a distant and fearful one.
Dec 11 2016, 7:56 PM
Carol Ann: Yes, Sr, and the land bearing food by the sweat of our brow rather than trees that bear fruit by themselves monthly. Do you know if the catechism teaches that work is a punishment?
58 PM
Lisa C: Genesis 3:23
23 So the Lord God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken
Dec 11 2016, 7:58 PM
Carol Ann: that’s okay, I was just following the thought that we progress to God through work individually and through time as societies
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Ruth (guest): #2 anyone? I’ve been thinking about examples of “strive to avoid unduly fixing your heart even on that which in itself is right and good”
Dec 11 2016, 7:59 PM
SrSusan (guest): How do each of us strive for purity of heart
Dec 11 2016, 8:00 PM
Lisa C: 17 To Adam he said, “Because you listened to your wife and ate fruit from the tree about which I commanded you, ‘You must not eat from it,’“Cursed is the ground because of you; through painful toil you will eat food from it all the days of your life.18 It will produce thorns and thistles for you, and you will eat the plants of the field.19 By the sweat of your brow you will eat your fooduntil you return to the ground, since from it you were taken;for dust you are and to dust you will retur
Dec 11 2016, 8:00 PM
Lisa C: return
Dec 11 2016, 8:00 PM
Carol Ann: by offering up unruly thoughts and persistent problems
Dec 11 2016, 8:00 PM
Lisa C: It is clear, as St. Francis said, that “no unlawful passions are compatible with chastity.” However, what do you make of the fact that he then tells us that we should “strive to avoid unduly fixing your heart even on that which in itself is right and good”?
Dec 11 2016, 8:00 PM
Lisa C: 1 Cor 7 I wish that all of you were as I am. But each of you has your own gift from God; one has this gift, another has that. 8 Now to the unmarried and the widows I say: It is good for them to stay unmarried, as I do. 9 But if they cannot control themselves, they should marry, for it is better to marry than to burn with passion.
Dec 11 2016, 8:00 PM
Ruth (guest): Hi Jennifer!
Dec 11 2016, 8:01 PM
Guest113 (guest): By Serving Others we are Serving God !
Dec 11 2016, 8:01 PM
Jennifer (guest): Hi, Carol, Ruth and Guest113
Dec 11 2016, 8:01 PM
Lisa C: I think the second question is about the fact that passion in marriage is good, but chastity is better if possible, according to Paul in 1 Cor.
8:04 PM
SrSusan (guest): The connection is not obvious about not abolishing laws and purity of heart05 PM
Lisa C: Not abolishing law, fulfilling law completely…by loving
Dec 11 2016, 8:05 PM
Guest113 (guest): Amen Lisa !
Dec 11 2016, 8:05 PM
Ruth (guest): Chastity in marriage and passion are not mutually exclusive; in fact, I’d say that passion makes chastity easier. Maybe you are thinking of celebacy, Lisa.
Dec 11 2016, 8:05 PM
Carol Ann: Yes, Sr. the law is a guide toward perfection, but only if it is from the heart, not the head alone
Dec 11 2016, 8:07 PM
Guest3210 (guest): OK, folks. The Cathechism says “Human work proceeds from persons created in the image of God can called to prolong the work of creation by subduing the earth, both with and for one another. Hence, work is a duty….Work honors the Creator’s gifts and the talents received from Him.”
PM
Guest3210 (guest): Should be “And called to prolong…
Dec 11 2016, 8:07 PM
Lisa C: But work took on toil as a consequence of sin
Dec 11 2016, 8:08 PM
Guest3210 (guest): Oh yeah!
PM
Carol Ann: oh bless you for looking that up! Work was originally a punishment, but it has been redeemed as well! PM
Guest3210 (guest): Question 2- Do not unduly fix your heart even on that which is in itself right and good. Such a fixation could become obsession and could lead to a degeneration of the good such that it could become a source of temptation.
Dec 11 2016, 8:10 PM
SrSusan (guest): So each law of the Old Dispensation has been fulfilled in love?
Dec 11 2016, 8:10 PM
Ruth (guest): An image: The law, rules and regs, put a fence around the deep pit of sin — which is the source of all unhappiness; Jesus came to raise us up, to teach us LOVE and enable us to be freed of the guilt of sin so that, when perfected, we can be ONE with Him, the Father, and the Holy Spirit — that is share in the life of the interaction of the persons of the Trinity.
Load Earlier Messages
Dec 11 2016, 7:52 PM
Lisa C: Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.
Dec 11 2016, 7:53 PM
Guest113 (guest): Work is an opportunity to express our gifts ! Don’t bury your gifts !
Dec 11 2016, 7:53 PM
Ruth (guest): And that is what the theological virtue of HOPE is — dreaming big and trusting God. It is not just optimism. We see it in today’s readings.
Dec 11 2016, 7:54 PM
SrSusan (guest): Eve would bear children in pain but her desire would be for her husband- something like that Carol
Dec 11 2016, 7:55 PM
Carol Ann: seems we have once again hit a dichotomy where we are trying to describe heaven when we really don’t know. Eye has not seen, ear has not heard the wonders in store for us. It is natural though to imagine our world with no sorrow or woe as heaven.
Dec 11 2016, 7:55 PM
Guest3210 (guest): Jesus came to fulfill the law, to purify it, if you will, so that it is in line with the New Covenant of love, so that it leads to sanctification rather than condemnation, to the joy of an intimate and warm relationship with the Lord, rather that a distant and fearful one.
Dec 11 2016, 7:56 PM
Carol Ann: Yes, Sr, and the land bearing food by the sweat of our brow rather than trees that bear fruit by themselves monthly. Do you know if the catechism teaches that work is a punishment?
Dec 11 2016, 7:57 PM
SrSusan (guest): Not off hand- I would have to look it up
Dec 11 2016, 7:58 PM
Lisa C: Genesis 3:23
23 So the Lord God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken
Dec 11 2016, 7:58 PM
Carol Ann: that’s okay, I was just following the thought that we progress to God through work individually and through time as societies
Dec 11 2016, 7:59 PM
SrSusan (guest): How do each of us strive for purity of heart
Dec 11 2016, 8:00 PM
Lisa C: 17 To Adam he said, “Because you listened to your wife and ate fruit from the tree about which I commanded you, ‘You must not eat from it,’“Cursed is the ground because of you; through painful toil you will eat food from it all the days of your life.18 It will produce thorns and thistles for you, and you will eat the plants of the field.19 By the sweat of your brow you will eat your fooduntil you return to the ground, since from it you were taken;for dust you are and to dust you will retur
Dec 11 2016, 8:00 PM
Lisa C: return
Dec 11 2016, 8:00 PM
Carol Ann: by offering up unruly thoughts and persistent problems
Dec 11 2016, 8:00 PM
Lisa C: It is clear, as St. Francis said, that “no unlawful passions are compatible with chastity.” However, what do you make of the fact that he then tells us that we should “strive to avoid unduly fixing your heart even on that which in itself is right and good”?
Dec 11 2016, 8:00 PM
Lisa C: 1 Cor 7 I wish that all of you were as I am. But each of you has your own gift from God; one has this gift, another has that. 8 Now to the unmarried and the widows I say: It is good for them to stay unmarried, as I do. 9 But if they cannot control themselves, they should marry, for it is better to marry than to burn with passion.
Dec 11 2016, 8:00 PM
Ruth (guest): Hi Jennifer!
Dec 11 2016, 8:01 PM
Guest113 (guest): By Serving Others we are Serving God !
Dec 11 2016, 8:01 PM
Jennifer (guest): Hi, Carol, Ruth and Guest113
Dec 11 2016, 8:01 PM
Lisa C: I think the second question is about the fact that passion in marriage is good, but chastity is better if possible, according to Paul in 1 Cor.
Dec 11 2016, 8:04 PM
SrSusan (guest): The connection is not obvious about not abolishing laws and purity of heart
Dec 11 2016, 8:05 PM
Lisa C: Not abolishing law, fulfilling law completely…by loving
Dec 11 2016, 8:05 PM
Guest113 (guest): Amen Lisa !
Dec 11 2016, 8:05 PM
Ruth (guest): Chastity in marriage and passion are not mutually exclusive; in fact, I’d say that passion makes chastity easier. Maybe you are thinking of celebacy, Lisa.
Dec 11 2016, 8:05 PM
Carol Ann: Yes, Sr. the law is a guide toward perfection, but only if it is from the heart, not the head alone
Dec 11 2016, 8:07 PM
Guest3210 (guest): OK, folks. The Cathechism says “Human work proceeds from persons created in the image of God can called to prolong the work of creation by subduing the earth, both with and for one another. Hence, work is a duty….Work honors the Creator’s gifts and the talents received from Him.”
Dec 11 2016, 8:07 PM
Guest3210 (guest): Should be “And called to prolong…
Dec 11 2016, 8:07 PM
Lisa C: But work took on toil as a consequence of sin
Dec 11 2016, 8:08 PM
Guest3210 (guest): Oh yeah!
Dec 11 2016, 8:09 PM
Carol Ann: oh bless you for looking that up! Work was originally a punishment, but it has been redeemed as well!
Dec 11 2016, 8:10 PM
Guest3210 (guest): Question 2- Do not unduly fix your heart even on that which is in itself right and good. Such a fixation could become obsession and could lead to a degeneration of the good such that it could become a source of temptation.
Dec 11 2016, 8:10 PM
SrSusan (guest): So each law of the Old Dispensation has been fulfilled in love?
Dec 11 2016, 8:10 PM
Ruth (guest): An image: The law, rules and regs, put a fence around the deep pit of sin — which is the source of all unhappiness; Jesus came to raise us up, to teach us LOVE and enable us to be freed of the guilt of sin so that, when perfected, we can be ONE with Him, the Father, and the Holy Spirit — that is share in the life of the interaction of the persons of the Trinity.
Dec 11 2016, 8:10
PM
Guest113 (guest): When we have relationship with God restored our gifts are expressed in many ways including work
Dec 11 2016, 8:11 PM
Ruth (guest): God made us to show forth his goodness and to
and to share with us his everlasting happiness in heaven. Baltimore CatechismePM
Lisa C: Mother, Romans 13:8-10 says that Love includes all6, 8:13 PM
Lisa C: Romans 13:8 Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for whoever loves others has fulfilled the law. 9 The commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not covet,”and whatever other command there may be, are summed up in this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”10 Love does no harm to a neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.
Dec 11 2016, 8:13 PM
Guest3210 (guest): But we did not become co-creators with God after the intervention of sin. He gave us talents and expected us to use them even before we sinned. Notice that we were called to fill the earth and subdue it before sin entered in.
Dec 11 2016, 8:13 PM
Ruth (guest): If you want to climb the mountain of the Lord, the commandments just keep you from going in the wrong direction.
13 PM
Ruth (guest): If you want to climb the mountain of the Lord, the commandments just keep you from going in the wrong direction.
Ruth (guest): Now there’s one “law” I’m not keeping: fill the earth and subdue it. Well, maybe I’m “subduing” a little bit of it — or I have done so. :16 PM
Carol Ann: Judy, I thought that command came after Cain & Abel? we should all do a Bible study together!
Dec 11 2016, 8:16 PM
Ruth (guest): Apparently not ALL the commands are for EVERYONE.
Lisa C: That was what God told Adam and Eve, some people like Jesus and St. Paul are celibate
Dec 11 2016, 8:18 PM
Carol Ann: I do, and I hope everyone does as well. I just love Bible Study too and we are digging up hard questions here
Dec 11 2016, 8:18 PM
Lisa C: Yes, please continue
:18 PM
Guest3210 (guest): The person who truly loves will fulfill the law. Out of love, he or she will do nothing that could wound or hurt another, or offend God.
Dec 11 2016, 8:19 PM
SrSusan (guest): ok
9 PM
Ruth (guest): I think it is a good idea to continue. There are more opportunities to study the Bible than there are to study, St.FdeS with someone who’s studied him so closely as you, Sr. Susan
Dec 11 2016, 8:19 PM
Guest113 (guest): Amen Judy !
Dec 11 2016, 8:19 PM
SrSusan (guest): Are you still here Jennifer
Dec 11 2016, 8:20 PM
Guest3210 (guest): The command to increase and multiply, fill the earth and subdue it appears in Genesis 1:28, before Cain and Abel.
Dec 11 2016, 8:20 PM
Lisa C: Bible study might be really hard in a chat
M
Carol Ann: we could do it as we are a small group if each person responds to the question before discussion starts 8:23 PM
Guest3210 (guest): But we would need a tool for study, a program already published to guide us.
Dec 11 2016, 8:23 PM
SrSusan (guest): The Salesian scholars in October just had a seminar on Scripture thru Salesian eyes. If I ever see one of thos papers I can posty it
:24 PM
Guest3210 (guest): Yes, we must finish the Intro!
Dec 11 2016, 8:24 PM
Carol Ann: Oh Sr, that would be lovely! If people wish, I could try to find a free online study
Dec 11 2016, 8:24 PM
Ruth (guest): Although I am happy to participate, I’ve never really become comfortable with this format. But I do not think that Scripture study would be any harder that studying St. Francis de Sales works through chat.
6, 8:25 PM
Ruth (guest): Face-to face and small group, live. 26 PM
Ruth (guest): Of course, that cannot be done from so many locations at once.
Dec 11 2016, 8:26 PM
Guest3210 (guest): With us all over the country, this is the only way to do it.
Dec 11 2016, 8:27 PM
Ruth (guest): Oh, I just had another idea. I’ve never done it though: Skyp or Facetime.
Dec 11 2016, 8:28 PM
Guest3210 (guest): I had a very bad experience with Skyp and would not want to initiate that format again.
Dec 11 2016, 8:28 PM
Lisa C: Not sure how we can Skype with so many people. I have only done it one on one.
Dec 11 2016, 8:28 PM
Guest113 (guest): Been studying Romans in our Bible study great discussions in that group .
29 PM
Lisa C: Skype was wonderful for my family when I was in Afghanistan.
Dec 11 2016, 8:29 PM
Guest3210 (guest): That’s a heavy one Brian. Paul has some of his longest run-on sentences in Romans.
Dec 11 2016, 8:30 PM
Carol Ann: when we did Romans many years ago, I used to look for the verb, go back for the subject and then add in phrases one by one