Chatting about: Perfection of Obedience

We have been following this topic for a while. Why do you think Saint Francis is going to such great lengths to meticulously elaborate on the various aspects of this? Saint Francis makes an interesting and important distinction. Even though it is not a sin to not follow the counsels, it is a sin to have contempt for them. Can we say similarly for the commandments? For example: Can we love the commandments and not follow them? Or, can we follow the commandments and have contempt for them?

Saint Francis tells us that the Church can never give evil advice. How might that lens help us when we are disputing with a fellow Catholic about a papal or conciliar teaching?
In the wording Saint Francis uses about choosing something apart from the counsels, he almost gives the impression that he still considers those lesser choices (even if not sinful). What are your thoughts on this? The typical example being marriage. Do you suppose he sees marriage as a lowly state compared to chastity/celibacy?

Dec 23, 2:06 PM

Guest4645 (Guest): Hi Sister Susan ! Merry Christmas too All !!! Sorry I can’t make Chat tonight ! Kairos meeting tonight at Wende Prison ! Please keep Men in your prayers and also Ladies at Albion Prison ! Keep Shining All ! God Bless You ! Brian

Dec 23, 7:27 PM

VisitationSiste: Hi Carol Anne merry Christmas- almost!

Dec 23, 7:27 PM

Carol Ann: Merry Christmas to you too, Sister!

Dec 23, 7:28 PM

Carol Ann: Is it snowing in Brooklyn?

Dec 23, 7:28 PM

VisitationSiste: No, it is warm

Dec 23, 7:39 PM

VisitationSiste: How are things for Christmas with all those who lost homes in the fires? We prayed for them tonight

Dec 23, 7:41 PM

Carol Ann: Oh thank you, we so need the prayers. It will be a ling time before many find even temporary housing. The good insurance companies are paying rent for the people but the occupancy rate is already so very low that it takes a while

Dec 23, 7:41 PM

VisitationSiste: Shelters?

Dec 23, 7:42 PM

Carol Ann: The emotional upset goes on. We are the oldest of the disasters, and the LA newspaper ran an article yesterday blaming specific people for what happened. Whe

Dec 23, 7:43 PM

Carol Ann: Everyone is very upset. And the anniversary is coming up, which reminds people all over again

Dec 23, 7:43 PM

Carol Ann: There are shelters, but they are trying to get people into actual homes

Dec 23, 7:43 PM

VisitationSiste: Christ’s Presence and grace is really needed then

Dec 23, 7:44 PM

Carol Ann: Yes, there is a lot of hurt and trauma buried just below the surface. It doesn’t take much to trigger it

Dec 23, 7:45 PM

VisitationSiste: Loving outreach, sincere caring might ameliorate that- but always everyone is so busy with their own lives

Dec 23, 7:46 PM

Carol Ann: And what do you do for an entire city?

Dec 23, 7:46 PM

VisitationSiste: Only another city partnering somehow, but of course that is ideal

Dec 23, 7:47 PM

Carol Ann: Yes, and no one has offered.

Dec 23, 7:47 PM

Carol Ann: What an idea though. I wonder how to make it happen?

Dec 23, 7:47 PM

VisitationSiste: Hmn- by the way- was California dedicated on Dec 8 to the Blessed Mother

Dec 23, 7:48 PM

VisitationSiste: That fellow who initiated that- maybe he could have a plan-

Dec 23, 7:49 PM

Carol Ann: I don’t actually know. I was so exhausted and I’ll after open enrollment that I ended up watching the Mass from Washington on ewtn.

Dec 23, 7:49 PM

Carol Ann: They didn’t mention it

Dec 23, 7:49 PM

VisitationSiste: Should we start the questions? The one on contempt is obvious- nothing should be held in contempt- certainly not the commandments

Dec 23, 7:50 PM

VisitationSiste: repeating questions Even though it is not a sin to not follow the counsels, it is a sin to have contempt for them. Can we say similarly for the commandments? For example: Can we love the commandments and not follow them? Or, can we follow the commandments and have contempt for them?

Dec 23, 7:50 PM

Carol Ann: We can say we don’t dishonor the commandments, but if we willfully break one of them repeatedly then how much honorable we really giving to them?

Dec 23, 7:53 PM

VisitationSiste: is dishonoring the same as contempt then

Dec 23, 7:55 PM

Carol Ann: We are entering that gray area of intentional vs unintentional disobedience, but to know the command and will only disobey seems like showing contempt

Dec 23, 7:55 PM

Dawn (Guest): I can not imagine having contempt for them, maybe if we willingly and knowingly break a commandment that would be like contempt. Dishonoring them I think would be contempt...ah, yes intentional

Dec 23, 7:56 PM

VisitationSiste: that’s true- what about weakness- one wants to follow but limitations in character are an obstacle

Dec 23, 7:57 PM

Carol Ann: I would think then that since our intention is to follow, ten we are not holding the law in contempt, but obeying to the best of our ability, however flawed that is

Dec 23, 7:58 PM

Dawn (Guest): If in ones heart they are trying, praying, avail them self to the Sacraments, I think of Gods Mercy and him knowing our heart. perhaps giving a grace at some time

Dec 23, 7:59 PM

VisitationSiste: Yes I guess contempt is related to hate, not limited love

Dec 23, 8:00 PM

VisitationSiste: Next Q: Saint Francis tells us that the Church can never give evil advice. How might that lens help us when we are disputing with a fellow Catholic about a papal or conciliar teaching?

Dec 23, 8:02 PM

VisitationSiste: The magisterium as we knew it gave holy advice- today tho the disputes are about that very issue- is the CHurch headed in a different direction

Dec 23, 8:02 PM

Carol Ann: That’s hard because we are learning to see the hierarchy as humanly flawed and would not think they could not be in error

Dec 23, 8:03 PM

Ruth (Guest): Hi everyone. I just got here. Was in Lake Placid at Carols and Lessons. Very good! Long day. Had a little trouble refreshing Living Jesus Chat page I’d left open. Will read what I can of chat now.

Dec 23, 8:03 PM

Dawn (Guest): Hi Ruth!

Dec 23, 8:03 PM

Carol Ann: Hi Ruth! Merry Christmas!

Dec 23, 8:04 PM

VisitationSiste: Merry Christmas Ruth!

Dec 23, 8:05 PM

VisitationSiste: In the past one would not challenge a Church teaching if one was a believer but over time that has changed

Dec 23, 8:06 PM

Carol Ann: I think the 60s changed all that. People began to challenge everything, but seldom listened for the answer

Dec 23, 8:07 PM

VisitationSiste: so re “evil advice” some might challenge that very notion- almost like nothing is evil today

Dec 23, 8:07 PM

Dawn (Guest): I read minimal news. I do read Pope Francis homilies

Dec 23, 8:07 PM

Carol Ann: Or that everything coming from authority is

Dec 23, 8:08 PM

VisitationSiste: yes just the opposite of the former opinions

Dec 23, 8:09 PM

VisitationSiste: It happens now so often with the “hot” topics”– it seems Catholics are split on almost eerything

Dec 23, 8:09 PM

Dawn (Guest): so many opinions and disputes.

Dec 23, 8:10 PM

Carol Ann: Is that division a sign of renewal-– that we are getting rid of the man made things that have crept in?

Dec 23, 8:12 PM

VisitationSiste: I don’t know- but I trust the things that move my soul- whether they are ancient or contemporary It is the only way I can see clearly

Dec 23, 8:12 PM

Ruth (Guest): Who or what is the “advice” –– giving Church in this question? And what is “the Church” giving advice about. I believe that only ex-cathedra teachings on faith (dogma) and morals are “protected” by Christ’s promise to be with the Church –– ‘til he comes again in glory.

Dec 23, 8:14 PM

Ruth (Guest): I’m not sure I could have stayed a Catholic were it not for Vatican II. And yet even in formulating those Documents of Vatican II there were many “disputes” (not necessarily a bad thing –– a joint effort to get at the truth).

Dec 23, 8:15 PM

VisitationSiste: from St Francis: We may say the same of the counsels of the Church, which by reason of the continued assistance of the Holy Ghost, who instructs and conducts her in all truth, can never give evil advice.

Dec 23, 8:15 PM

Carol Ann: Anne so e points are still disputed. Have we always been this contentious?

Dec 23, 8:16 PM

VisitationSiste: Probably at Vatican Councils there is alot of contentions-

Dec 23, 8:17 PM

Ruth (Guest): I’m fine with “the counsels.“ Dispute, agrumentation, is different from contentiousness.

Dec 23, 8:19 PM

VisitationSiste: It is not always easy to find the truth – otherwise- why dispute

Dec 23, 8:22 PM

VisitationSiste: Yet the Church history shows many differences in outlook- like when there were 2 or more popes

Dec 23, 8:22 PM

Ruth (Guest): Even if the Church reverted to a hierarchy-free Church (which I do not think it will), pretty much as it was in the beginning, with the apostles more like teachers and prophets and no one “legislating” as such, it would still be the Church of Jesus Christ with the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. It is the people who call themselves “spiritual” but “non religious” –– the

Dec 23, 8:23 PM

Carol Ann: Sometimes the truth is revealed in history-–looking back to discern where the Spirit actually did move

Dec 23, 8:23 PM

VisitationSiste: Certainly moved within the saints

Dec 23, 8:24 PM

Ruth (Guest): “nones” as Bishop Robert Barron calls them (particularly if the belong to the huge group of people who identify themselves as having been “raised Catholic) that I worry may be drastically diluting Gospel teachings.

Dec 23, 8:25 PM

VisitationSiste: I met a “nones” in October Very bright- but cautious about Church teaching

Dec 23, 8:28 PM

VisitationSiste: This time of year is special with grace. I think we should plunge into it and share what Jesus “gave” us this Christmas

Dec 23, 8:28 PM

VisitationSiste: or will give us!

Dec 23, 8:28 PM

VisitationSiste: and what we are moved to share as well

Dec 23, 8:29 PM

VisitationSiste: I hope each of you received a wonderful spiritual treasure!

Dec 23, 8:29 PM

Carol Ann: That is what Christmas is all about

Dec 23, 8:30 PM

Ruth (Guest): Cautious may be good. But we do need to know that we are fallible, and that Christ gave the Apostles (and their successors) a certain “infallibility” –– defined much later. We, like they, need to have the courage to swim upstream when the rest of the world is choosing the easier or more comfortable route that is not in tune with revealed truth or often even with natural law.

Dec 23, 8:31 PM

VisitationSiste: Yes and I hope each find inner strength and external support!

Dec 23, 8:31 PM

VisitationSiste: Have a blessed Christmas!

Dec 23, 8:31 PM

Carol Ann: Merry Christmas Sister! Thank you!

Dec 23, 8:32 PM

Ruth (Guest): I treasure my Baptism, that open, for me, the door to other Sacraments and the vast store of ancient wisdom and truth professed by “the Church.“

Dec 23, 8:32 PM

Carol Ann: This hour goes by so fast

Dec 23, 8:33 PM

Ruth (Guest): Doesn’t it. A joy-filled Christmas to you all!

Dec 23, 8:33 PM

Carol Ann: God bless you Ruth and Dawn!

Dec 23, 8:33 PM

Dawn (Guest): Thank you Sister, I will recall your words! and pray about this when with family esp. Merry Christmas everyone, God Bless you all <3

Dec 23, 8:34 PM

Carol Ann: See you next week!

Dec 23, 8:34 PM

Dawn (Guest): Yes, see you all next week

Chatting about: Perfection of Obedience

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