Saint Francis talks about keeping our eyes fixed on God while suffering affliction. How do we discern when to simply accept the affliction out of filial love for our Father or when to seek help? In other words, how do we discern if God’s will is to simply accept what is at hand or seek change? What does this state of ‘waiting’ (attente) that Saint Francis writes of look like for those discerning their vocation? How can we still say that Jesus had this holy indifference, or, waiting, when he uttere
May 24, 10:36 AM
VisitationSiste: uttered from the Cross: My God, My God, why hast Thou forsaken me?
At the Annunciation when Mary asks the angel Gabriel how she could be pregnant, is she still in this holy indifference despite asking this question about God’s will?
May 24, 5:13 PM
Karen Parker: It seems like one could have a holy indifference regarding the outcome, and at the same time, seek to change / better ones situation & understand it more fully.
May 24, 7:42 PM
Karen Parker: I’d like to learn about the indulgences to be gained through prayer to Mary, that St. Francis de Sales talked about in letter DCXVIII, XIV 344 Is that letter available in English???
May 26, 7:32 PM
Carroll (Guest): Hi Ruth, Alice, and viewers
May 26, 7:32 PM
Alice (Guest): Hello
May 26, 7:34 PM
Ruth (Guest): HI Carrol, Alice and viewers.
May 26, 7:35 PM
Ruth (Guest): Page had disappeared! And I’ll be back and forth to computer since I’m cooking some fish for supper. Good, practical questions I think.
May 26, 7:35 PM
Ruth (Guest): I mean those about waiting or seeking change.
May 26, 7:38 PM
Carroll (Guest): Yes-
May 26, 7:40 PM
Carroll (Guest): For me, one big indicator that I need to seek help is if my “affliction,” or whatever I am struggling with, is affecting people around me.
May 26, 7:40 PM
Dawn (Guest): hi Ruth Alice and Carrol!
May 26, 7:41 PM
Carroll (Guest): Hi Dawn!
May 26, 7:41 PM
Ruth (Guest): I’m back again. I like the term waiting, or waiting patiently better than “holy indifference.” Because “indifference” ordinarily implies not caring.
May 26, 7:41 PM
Ruth (Guest): Hi Dawn.
May 26, 7:41 PM
Dawn (Guest): this is a good question to ask Carroll , when discerning
May 26, 7:47 PM
Alice (Guest): Sister is not here?
May 26, 7:48 PM
Ruth (Guest): Yes Carroll that seems like a pretty good “test.” When I get irritable I know I need to stop and take stock. The “help” I seek may be simply a matter of getting to bed on time to get a full night’s sleep or stopping to eat a meal.
May 26, 7:49 PM
Ruth (Guest): But it could mean adjusting priorities.
May 26, 7:49 PM
Ruth (Guest): Getting the “focus” back.
May 26, 7:49 PM
Dawn (Guest): copied from lesson: My eyes are ever towards the Lord; for he shall pluck my feet out of the snare and the nets. Have you fallen into the net of adversity? Ah! look not upon your mishap, nor upon the snare in which you are taken: look upon God and leave all to him, he will have care of you: Cast thy care upon the Lord and he shall sustain thee. Why do you trouble yourself with willing or not willing the events and accidents of this world, since you are ignorant what were best for you to will, and since God
May 26, 7:50 PM
Carroll (Guest): For example, when feeling “burdened” as a caregiver, I trusted that God would not give me more than I could handle as He was teaching me about sacrificial giving of myself out of love for Him. However, there eventually came a point where George’s needs simply exceeded what any one person could do. So, if I were to continue without seeking change by asking for additional help, he would have been affected. If I had continued, then my pride would have been at work as opposed to genuine sacrifice.
May 26, 7:51 PM
Carroll (Guest): His family placed him in long term memory care 3 days ago.
May 26, 7:51 PM
Dawn (Guest): will always will for you, without your putting yourself in trouble, all you could will for yourself?
May 26, 7:52 PM
Ruth (Guest): Good example, Carroll.
May 26, 7:52 PM
Dawn (Guest): was trying to post all he said in one, but we are limited to number of characters in one post..
May 26, 7:54 PM
Ruth (Guest): Yes, Dawn, I’m so long-winded that I noticed that long ago. And then the passage gets interrupted by another thread. It’s OK; we see that that was all one.
May 26, 7:55 PM
Dawn (Guest): and not sure if it fit into dialog, that was intention anyways
May 26, 7:56 PM
Carroll (Guest): It is a powerful quote- thank you, Dawn
May 26, 7:58 PM
Dawn (Guest): are we on question 1?
May 26, 7:59 PM
Ruth (Guest): Part of seeking and receiving help — even in the ordinary, everyday matters of life — is part of the whole business of living in community. There is no Christian life without giving and receiving — not tit for tat, but generously.
May 26, 8:00 PM
Ruth (Guest): Q 1, I think.
May 26, 8:02 PM
Dawn (Guest): thus, Carrolls response….accepting or seeking change
May 26, 8:03 PM
Ruth (Guest): Today, I was Lector at St. Agnes. Somehow every word impacts me more when I am in the altar area . . . Fr. John’s sermon was about recognizing that we all need the help of others. He used a funny simile, first about an arrogant Mayor who didn’t alway read ahead of time the speeches that his speech writer prepared.
May 26, 8:03 PM
Dawn (Guest): yes Ruth, it is not an either or an OR….perhaps it is both seeking and receiving. wonderful insight!
May 26, 8:05 PM
Ruth (Guest): Anyway, at one point we prayed the familiar prayer that AA has made well known. I think it fits, here:
May 26, 8:05 PM
Ruth (Guest): God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference.
May 26, 8:06 PM
Dawn (Guest): we could live this out in community, also I believe God assists us…the Holy Spirit….in discerning. because Jesus said the counsler, the Holy Spirit , whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you ALL things and remind you of everything I have said to you
May 26, 8:08 PM
Ruth (Guest): Indeed! This is so consoling. We have a real friend in Jesus, and we have a friend in his Spirit, The Holy Spirit, who is with us ALWAYS. (
May 26, 8:09 PM
Ruth (Guest): That is, if we allow the Spirit to live in us and don’t drive him out by serious sin.
May 26, 8:09 PM
Alice (Guest): I love the insights here. Good stuff.
May 26, 8:09 PM
Ruth (Guest): Alice, we are happy that you are here, and you contribute a good deal, too.
May 26, 8:10 PM
Dawn (Guest): Yes Alice!
May 26, 8:10 PM
Carroll (Guest): I heard someone say today, “Don’t give up your peace for something less than Peace.”
May 26, 8:11 PM
Dawn (Guest):
May 26, 8:12 PM
Ruth (Guest): I think the matter of FOCUS — so hard for me in a number of way especially since my traumatic brain injury — is so important . And the focus should be on God and on doing the will of God. Jesus makes that a bit easier for us because when we see Jesus we see the Father.
May 26, 8:14 PM
Ruth (Guest): It wasn’t a mean and uncaring Father who sent Jesus to the Cross. He, Himself, was nailed there on the cross with the Son out of Love for the people He created and wanted to redeem after their/our disobedience.
May 26, 8:14 PM
Carroll (Guest): So, perhaps another point of discerning when to accept circumstances and wait patiently versus when to seek change has to do with whether we can keep our hearts at peace- or, at least, the higher regions of our souls at peace- while we wait.
May 26, 8:15 PM
Carroll (Guest): The Holy Spirit is never the author of confusion. So, for me, if much confusion or chaos surfaces, then some sort of change is in order.
May 26, 8:15 PM
Ruth (Guest): Very good, Carroll. That is the primary test that St. Ignatius Loyola proposes in his “Exercises” : Where do we find consolation?
May 26, 8:17 PM
Dawn (Guest): you touched on something at beginning…is how the affliction was affecting those around us. and it may not be how it is affecting them at the moment, nor based on “emotions”….I’m pondering outloud here
May 26, 8:17 PM
Carroll (Guest): Good point, Dawn
May 26, 8:18 PM
Ruth (Guest): Good observation, Carroll. In German: I am not the god of the “durcheinander” (confusion, chaos) but the God of the “miteinander” (withoneanother).
May 26, 8:18 PM
Carroll (Guest): That’s beautiful!
May 26, 8:19 PM
Dawn (Guest): is seeking interior peace to be what we aim for, always? a big ??
May 26, 8:19 PM
Dawn (Guest): that is beautiful Ruth!
May 26, 8:21 PM
Ruth (Guest): When others are affected in a negative way, that does not necessarily mean that we need to change, however. Think of all the martyrs! Think of how fickle people were with regard to Jesus — one moment trying to make him King, the next calling for his crucifixion.
May 26, 8:21 PM
Carroll (Guest): When all is ordered according to the Will of God and our will is one with God’s, how could we have anything but peace?
May 26, 8:21 PM
VisitationSiste: Sorry I missed chat Just got back from DC
May 26, 8:21 PM
Alice (Guest): Agree Carroll.
May 26, 8:21 PM
Alice (Guest): Hi Sister!
May 26, 8:21 PM
Carroll (Guest): Good Mother Marie De Sales Chapuis said, ” Heaven on Earth is the Will of God accepted and loved.”
May 26, 8:21 PM
Dawn (Guest): Hi Sr Susan!
May 26, 8:22 PM
VisitationSiste: Be here next week Have to say my prayers too
May 26, 8:22 PM
Ruth (Guest): Welcome back Sister!
May 26, 8:22 PM
VisitationSiste: Thanks for being at chat and carrying on I should be on regular schedulenow
May 26, 8:22 PM
VisitationSiste: Thanks
May 26, 8:22 PM
VisitationSiste: Next week ok
May 26, 8:22 PM
Dawn (Guest): thank you, see you next week God willing
May 26, 8:23 PM
Carroll (Guest): Hello Mother Susan Marie- Have a blessed week!
May 26, 8:24 PM
Ruth (Guest): I’m sure the sisters are glad you are back. Oremus pro invicem!
May 26, 8:25 PM
Dawn (Guest): Q3….how can we say Jesus had Holy indifference while on the cross he said My God My God why have you forsaken me?
May 26, 8:27 PM
Dawn (Guest): or had waiting?
May 26, 8:27 PM
Ruth (Guest): When Jesus cries out on the Cross, My God, my God, why hast Thou forsaken me” I think it expresses BOTH his feeling of utter desolation and abandonment — that even the Father has offered Jesus no relief from His extreme sufferings — BUT
May 26, 8:28 PM
Carroll (Guest): Even as He was expressing intense sorrow and humiliation, He followed that with complete surrender, ” Into your hands I commend My Spirit.”
May 26, 8:29 PM
Dawn (Guest): in part…we can then learn how this is done. how to imitate Jesus . both things said, together
May 26, 8:31 PM
Dawn (Guest): a more than worthy meditation right there. God’s Word.
May 26, 8:32 PM
Dawn (Guest): Everything is Grace.
May 26, 8:32 PM
Carroll (Guest): Yes! … and His surrender was with great confidense, even though in His humanness He did not understand.
May 26, 8:33 PM
Alice (Guest): Good night all. Until next week.
May 26, 8:33 PM
Carroll (Guest): Goodnight Alice- thank you for being here!
May 26, 8:34 PM
Dawn (Guest): G’night Alice. thank you. Blessings! see next week
May 26, 8:35 PM
Carroll (Guest): I should say goodnight too. Have a blessed Memorial Day and a fruitful week!
May 26, 8:35 PM
Dawn (Guest): the last question 4…..was Mary in Holy Indifference when asking Gabriel about….Gods will?
May 26, 8:35 PM
Dawn (Guest): She said How can this be?
May 26, 8:35 PM
Ruth (Guest): Yes. There is a Psalm which ends with I will praise God in the assembly. It is as if Jesus is praying the whole psalm, feelings of desolation AND trust in God — all at one time. And that is how we, too, can get through the worst of our sufferings: acknowledge the pain; acknowledge even confusion BUT choose trust, choose to do or suffer the Will of the One who made us and loves us.
May 26, 8:36 PM
Dawn (Guest): thank you for this clarity Ruth!
May 26, 8:37 PM
Dawn (Guest): there it is. the perfect way to understand guestion 1
May 26, 8:38 PM
Ruth (Guest): Ahh! But to LIVE it! Day in, day out! May he give us all the graces necessary to do so.
May 26, 8:38 PM
Dawn (Guest): goodnight Carroll! thank you for being here, see you next week. God Bless
May 26, 8:39 PM
Dawn (Guest): Amen.
May 26, 8:41 PM
Dawn (Guest): The Cistercian monks or nuns, as a novice, learn the Psalms, memorize them all. to begin. after they have done so, they meditate on them. I think this over a course of some time.
May 26, 8:42 PM
Dawn (Guest): and with the Grace of God
May 26, 8:43 PM
Ruth (Guest): Dawn, sorry, I keep losing this page and have to return through the Visitation Spirit.
May 26, 8:43 PM
Dawn (Guest): Happy you were here tonight Ruth. deep insights you share are helpful in this quest to become Holy in this valley of tears
May 26, 8:44 PM
Dawn (Guest): If He has placed it on my heart to become Holy, then I trust he will provide the means for me to do so
May 26, 8:46 PM
Dawn (Guest): and sometimes..those means are afflictions. I think, as St Therese said….sometimes he would want us to walk down a rocky path because the flowers may hold us back. not excat quote
May 26, 8:46 PM
Ruth (Guest): Dawn, please continue to pray for me; I am grateful that the Lord has given me a good deal of understanding, but simplicity and TRUST are so important — and I see that in you in good measure. Yes, the one who has called us to holiness will make it possible.
May 26, 8:47 PM
Ruth (Guest): That is where simple acceptance points us in the right direction.
May 26, 8:48 PM
Dawn (Guest): Yes, he will. thank you , holding you in my prayers
May 26, 8:48 PM
Ruth (Guest): Have a good and blessed week, Dawn!
May 26, 8:48 PM
Dawn (Guest): You as well my friend! goodnight
May 26, 9:20 PM
Ruth (Guest): I’ve signed in again
in order to post Psalm 22, so clearly applying to Jesus: Psalm 22 a
For the director of music. To the tune of “The Doe of the Morning.” A psalm of
David.
1My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?
Why are you so far from saving me,
so far from my cries of anguish?
2My God, I cry out by day, but you do not answer,
by night, but I find no rest. b
3Yet you are enthroned as the Holy One;
you are the one Israel praises. c
4In you our ancestors put their trust;
Psalm 22 a
For the
May 26, 9:22 PM
Ruth (Guest): they trusted and you
delivered them.
5To you they cried out and were saved;
in you they trusted and were not put to shame.
6But I am a worm and not a man,
scorned by everyone, despised by the people.
7All who see me mock me;
they hurl insults, shaking their heads.
8“He trusts in the Lord,” they say,
“let the Lord rescue him.
Let him deliver him,
since he delights in him.”
May 26, 9:22 PM
Ruth (Guest): 9Yet you brought me
out of the womb;
you made me trust in you, even at my mother’s breast.
10From birth I was cast on you;
from my mother’s womb you have been my God.
11Do not be far from me,
for trouble is near
and there is no one to help.
12Many bulls surround me;
strong bulls of Bashan encircle me.
13Roaring lions that tear their prey
open their mouths wide against me.
14I am poured out like water,
and all my bones are out of joint.
My heart has turned to wax;
it has melted within me.
May 26, 9:24 PM
Ruth (Guest): 15My mouth d is dried up like a potsherd,and my tongue sticks to the roof of my mouth;you lay me in the dust of death.16Dogs surround me,a pack of villains encircles me;they pierce e my hands and my feet.17All my bones are on display;people stare and gloat over me.18They divide my clothes among themand cast lots for my garment.19But you, Lord, do not be far from me.You are my strength; come quickly to help me.20Deliver me from the sword,my precious life from the power of the dogs.
May 26, 9:25 PM
Ruth (Guest): 21Rescue me from the mouth of the lions;save me from the horns of the wild oxen.22I will declare your name to my people;in the assembly I will praise you.23You who fear the Lord, praise him!All you descendants of Jacob, honor him!Revere him, all you descendants of Israel!24For he has not despised or scornedthe suffering of the afflicted one;he has not hidden his face from himbut has listened to his cry for help.25From you comes the theme of my praise in the great assembly;before those who fear you f I will
May 26, 9:27 PM
Ruth (Guest): 25From you comes the
theme of my praise in the great assembly;
before those who fear you f I will fulfill my vows.
26The poor will eat and be satisfied;
those who seek the Lord will praise him—
may your hearts live forever!
27All the ends of the earth
will remember and turn to the Lord,
and all the families of the nations
will bow down before him,
28for dominion belongs to the Lord
and he rules over the nations.
May 26, 9:28 PM
Ruth (Guest): 29All the rich of the
earth will feast and worship;
all who go down to the dust will kneel before him—
those who cannot keep themselves alive.
30Posterity will serve him;
future generations will be told about the Lord.
31They will proclaim his righteousness,
declaring to a people yet unborn:
He has done it!