As beautiful as this reflection is, how does it make a difference in someone’s pursuit of holiness? Is all of this just an abstract theological explanation of what happens in someone’s growth in virtue? How can we begin growing in virtue in light of this reflection? Is there a specific one we can pick and start “practicing”? Let’s talk for a moment about how other virtues affect the use of another virtue. For example: We do we need to have prudence in order to have courage? Since prudence is ty
Since prudence is typically described as the virtue that is required to practice any other virtue, we should ponder conversely: Can one practice prudence without the other virtues?
VisitationSiste: Tonights questions really depend on the reading of the chapter
Sep 22, 7:36 PM
VisitationSiste: abpout prudence, the virtues etc
Sep 22, 7:36 PM
VisitationSiste: It may happen then, that a man may have some virtues and lack others; but they will either be virtues newly springing and as yet tender, like flowers in blossom; or else perishing and dying virtues, like fading flowers: for, in conclusion, virtues cannot have their true integrity and sufficiency unless they be all together, as all philosophy and divinity assure us.
Sep 22, 7:36 PM
VisitationSiste: that’s one of the paragraphs
Sep 22, 7:37 PM
VisitationSiste: that’s like saying we must be holy all at once?
Sep 22, 7:37 PM
Jennifer Koo: Hi, Ruth
Sep 22, 7:38 PM
Carol Ann: It is a constant struggle. I think each of us is naturally better at some than others, but we must practice them all
Sep 22, 7:39 PM
VisitationSiste: Opportunities for all certainly do not happen all at once
Sep 22, 7:39 PM
VisitationSiste: This following paragraph is central:
Sep 22, 7:39 PM
VisitationSiste: But is not prudence itself imprudent in an intemperate man? Fortitude, without prudence, justice and temperance, is not fortitude, but folly; and justice is unjust in the weak man who dares not do it, in the intemperate man who permits himself to be carried away with passion, and in the imprudent man who is not able to discern between the right and the wrong. Justice is not justice unless it be strong, prudent and temperate; nor is prudence prudence unless it be temperate, just and strong; nor fortitude for
Sep 22, 7:40 PM
VisitationSiste: nor fortitude fortitude unless it be just, prudent and temperate; nor temperance temperance unless it be prudent, strong and just. In fine, a virtue is not perfect virtue, unless it be accompanied by all the rest.
Sep 22, 7:40 PM
VisitationSiste: But who really thinks of prudence today??
Sep 22, 7:41 PM
Carol Ann: I can’t think of the last time someone mentioned it
Sep 22, 7:41 PM
VisitationSiste: or behaved with it either!
Sep 22, 7:41 PM
Michelle Pasko Olivier: Prudence requires discernment
Sep 22, 7:41 PM
VisitationSiste: Hi Blanca
Sep 22, 7:41 PM
VisitationSiste: and Ruth
Sep 22, 7:42 PM
Ruth (Guest): Hi everyone. Glad you are all here. I think I missed something, Lisa, about your Dad. Are they really considering operating on an aneurysm of a 95 year old? I’m thinking of a cerebral aneurysm, not one that is a bit easier to operate like abdominal aortic.
Sep 22, 7:42 PM
Blanca Villa: Hello everyone.
Sep 22, 7:42 PM
Jennifer Koo: Hi, Blanca
Sep 22, 7:42 PM
VisitationSiste: Imagine if our government leaders were truly prudent
Sep 22, 7:42 PM
Jennifer Koo: I think accountants think of prudent every day, this is part of our job
Sep 22, 7:43 PM
Carol Ann: Hi Blanca, Hi Ruth
Sep 22, 7:43 PM
VisitationSiste: If you had to picka virtue to start practising which would you pick? I would try courage
Sep 22, 7:43 PM
Lisa C: Charity
Sep 22, 7:43 PM
Lisa C: It has all the others
Sep 22, 7:43 PM
Michelle Pasko Olivier: Patience
Sep 22, 7:43 PM
Jennifer Koo: Courage is something important for me, my greatest temptation is fear
Sep 22, 7:44 PM
Ruth (Guest): Amen to Lisa’s choice. Love.
Sep 22, 7:44 PM
Carol Ann: Fear of the Lord
Sep 22, 7:44 PM
Blanca Villa: I would definitely pick courage.
Sep 22, 7:45 PM
Jennifer Koo: I went for a retreat this month and the priest said that fear of the LORD was a wrong translation
Sep 22, 7:45 PM
Ruth (Guest): Yes Carol Ann, that is a virtue that also contains all the others. Desire to do what God wants us to do, to do His will.
Sep 22, 7:45 PM
VisitationSiste: what was it
Sep 22, 7:46 PM
Blanca Villa: Jennifer, I struggle with anxiety and what ifs so I also ask God for courage.
Sep 22, 7:46 PM
Carol Ann: It is a bit awkward . It really means reverence, awe
Sep 22, 7:48 PM
VisitationSiste: how does one virtue affect another? if we have courage or patience do we necessarily have charity?
Sep 22, 7:48 PM
Lisa C: Luke 12:4-6, I think Jesus really means we should fear God
Sep 22, 7:48 PM
Ruth (Guest): Yes, reverence, respect. The respect due God is infinite. I think even in heave we will reverence God and it will be a source of endless joy.
Sep 22, 7:49 PM
Jennifer Koo: Yes, I think we need charity
Sep 22, 7:49 PM
Lisa C: 4 Then Jesus said to the
people, “I tell you, my friends, don’t be afraid of people. They can kill the
body, but after that they can do nothing more to hurt you. 5 I will show you
the one to fear. You should fear God, who has the power to kill you and also to
throw you into hell. Yes, he is the one you should fear.
6 “When birds are sold, five small birds cost only two pennies. But God does
not forget any of them.
Sep 22, 7:49 PM
Lisa C: Notice, Jesus says has the power to….not that He will kill you
Sep 22, 7:50 PM
Michelle Pasko Olivier: When we show patience towards another, such as someone who is walking slow and we don’t rush them…that could be showing charity
Sep 22, 7:51 PM
VisitationSiste: good example!
Sep 22, 7:51 PM
Carol Ann: Yes, because that is really hard to do
Sep 22, 7:51 PM
VisitationSiste: and something to work on!
Sep 22, 7:51 PM
Carol Ann: Oh yes, I get my patiencectestedcnearky hourly
Sep 22, 7:52 PM
Lisa C: Maybe St. Francis is saying that our capacity is smaller than that of God. We can only do small things alone, but with God in us we can bring all the virtues together by letting God work in us.
Sep 22, 7:52 PM
Jennifer Koo: There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment.
Sep 22, 7:53 PM
Lisa C: God’s work is perfect and contains all good.
Sep 22, 7:53 PM
VisitationSiste: I like the idea of God’s bringing all the virtues together within us- for He lives within us
Sep 22, 7:53 PM
Carol Ann: Oops, that should say patience tested
Sep 22, 7:53 PM
Jennifer Koo: I agreed
Sep 22, 7:54 PM
Jennifer Koo: GOD is perfect
Sep 22, 7:54 PM
Ruth (Guest): He has the power to give life as well. Fear the way we ordinarily understand it is appropriate toward God sort of as a last ditch motivator to avoid sin for those who are flirting with sin, but ordinarily, if we are trying to “do justice and walk humbly with God” than the meaning “reverence” seems to me more appropriate, and I think it is closer to the meaning of the Hebrew word, too.
Sep 22, 7:55 PM
Lisa C: Maybe it a fear of disappointing God
Sep 22, 7:55 PM
Carol Ann: That too, Lisa
Sep 22, 7:56 PM
Jennifer Koo: “God’s bringing all the virtues together within us- for He lives within us” If we are living in GOD and GOD in us
Sep 22, 7:57 PM
VisitationSiste: I think our Guardian Angels also prompt us to live virtuously
Sep 22, 7:57 PM
Lisa C: Yes, I am sure they do
Sep 22, 7:57 PM
Michelle Pasko Olivier: Definitely and also the Holy Spirit
Sep 22, 7:58 PM
Carol Ann: We all fall short of of the Mark due to sin and weakness, but if we allow Him to change us from within, we will fine ourselves behaving very differently
Sep 22, 7:59 PM
VisitationSiste: He moves us sometimes without our realizing it at the moment
Sep 22, 7:59 PM
Michelle Pasko Olivier: We also need to recognize the opportunities as they present themselves
Sep 22, 8:00 PM
Jennifer Koo: I think we might not be able to comprehend the utterly Great News of Jesus Christ if we don’t first appreciate the fear of God? Without total awe, wonder, terror, dread, reverence, and respect for a perfectly holy, righteous, and just Creator, can we truly appreciate what Jesus Christ, the Son of God, did for us on Calvary’s cross?
Sep 22, 8:00 PM
Lisa C: Then how do we have free will?
Sep 22, 8:00 PM
Lisa C: That’s confusing
Sep 22, 8:01 PM
Ruth (Guest): I have a bit of trouble with the notion of proportionality with regard to virtues or conformity to reason. I remember thinking a lot about that in 8th grade, only I was calling it “balance.” A teacher, with whom I am still friends, now in his 90’s, said that great things are usually accomplished by people who are not so concerned with “balance” as with doing a specific good. I think we see this in the lives of the saints, too. Each seems to especially model some particular virtues.
Sep 22, 8:02 PM
VisitationSiste: we freely do not block grace is what I am thinking- grace is operative
Sep 22, 8:05 PM
Blanca Villa: If we persevere in asking the Holy Spirit to gift to us a virtue and we faithfuly practice it, can one virtue build onto another? Of course through the grace of God and us being willing to put them into action in our daily lives.
Sep 22, 8:05 PM
Ruth (Guest): Prudence is important, but think of all the martyrs, for example. Most do not seem to be practicing “prudence” at least not the way it is ordinarily understood if they could avoid martyrdom but do not. Think even of St. Francis of Assisi. He sure was radical to an extreme, and that was what made him great.
Sep 22, 8:06 PM
VisitationSiste: Maybe we need St Francis de sales definition of prudence
Sep 22, 8:06 PM
Michelle Pasko Olivier: Yes, he wasn’t always prudent when it came to his health
Sep 22, 8:06 PM
Ruth (Guest): Exactly.
Sep 22, 8:07 PM
Carol Ann: Which makes me think there is worldly prudence and a totally different prudence belonging to the kingdom of God
Sep 22, 8:07 PM
VisitationSiste: Angelus Calendar: April – Virtue of Prudenceby Benjamin BielinskiAngelus Calendar: April – Virtue of Prudence”Again there are abject and honorable virtues; for the world generally despises patience, gentleness, simplicity, and even humility itself, while, on the contrary, it highly esteems prudence, valor, and liberality.” – St. Francis de Sales Prudence is one of the four cardinal virtues. These four combined with the three theological virtues make up the seven main virtues of the Catholic Faith. (Cardinal
Sep 22, 8:07 PM
Lisa C: 1806 Prudence is the virtue that disposes practical reason to discern our true good in every circumstance and to choose the right means of achieving it; “the prudent man looks where he is going.”65 “Keep sane and sober for your prayers.”66 Prudence is “right reason in action,” writes St. Thomas Aquinas, following Aristotle.67 It is not to be confused with timidity or fear, nor with duplicity or dissimulation. It is called auriga virtutum (the charioteer of the virtues); it guides the other virtues by settin
Sep 22, 8:08 PM
Carol Ann: It does seem like some of the martyrs forced the hands of those who martyred them to try to bring them to,God
Sep 22, 8:08 PM
VisitationSiste: dence is that virtue which has to do with acting rightly. It helps us in every action and is essential to the regulation of life in all its parts. This virtue is particularly important as it guides all the other virtues, enabling us to use them in the right way and at the right time.
Sep 22, 8:08 PM
VisitationSiste: prudence above
Sep 22, 8:08 PM
Lisa C: setting rule and measure. It is prudence that immediately guides the judgment of conscience. The prudent man determines and directs his conduct in accordance with this judgment. With the help of this virtue we apply moral principles to particular cases without error and overcome doubts about the good to achieve and the evil to avoid.
Sep 22, 8:08 PM
Lisa C: Catechism
Sep 22, 8:10 PM
VisitationSiste: this does not preclude martyrdom does it?
Sep 22, 8:11 PM
Lisa C: So it is good judgement
Sep 22, 8:11 PM
Ruth (Guest): In today’s Gospel Jesus praises the prudence, in a way, of the unjust steward, not because he is unjust but because he does what he perceives he needs to do to get to the end he wants. We need to be as resourceful in how we focus on and attempt to achieve the end of giving God glory in all we do.
Sep 22, 8:12 PM
Carol Ann: It is having heaven as the goal that drives thec prudence of martyrs
Sep 22, 8:13 PM
Ruth (Guest): Good observation, Carol Ann.
Sep 22, 8:14 PM
Lisa C: Having heaven as the goal for others….they die for the whole Church….I think they are so close to God that they do not really worry about going to heaven
Sep 22, 8:15 PM
Lisa C: They make a sacrifice and die so others can go to heaven…their act is a repariation
Sep 22, 8:15 PM
Lisa C: They are most like Jesus
Sep 22, 8:17 PM
Ruth (Guest): Beautiful, Lisa.
Sep 22, 8:17 PM
VisitationSiste: yes and it makes me remember child martyrs- recent ones in the Mid east
Sep 22, 8:18 PM
Lisa C: Victim souls too….I wonder what happens to aborted babies….they die, but do not get to chose. God has to do something good with them.
Sep 22, 8:19 PM
Lisa C: I am sure He is
Sep 22, 8:19 PM
VisitationSiste: like the holy innocents in Jesus’ time
Sep 22, 8:19 PM
Ruth (Guest): And that goes along with SFdS’s “reson takes possession, first of one passion then of another . . . and ordinarily this life of our soul begins in the heart of our passions, which is love . . . ”
Sep 22, 8:20 PM
Lisa C: I bet there is a nursery in Heaven where they all get to play with Blessed Mother, because they do not have real mothers
Sep 22, 8:21 PM
Blanca Villa: I loved that Lisa🙏
Sep 22, 8:22 PM
VisitationSiste: Hi Carroll
Sep 22, 8:24 PM
Ruth (Guest): They do have mothers, biological mothers, and sometimes these aborted babies help to save their mothers. I’ve known many women who, eventually are healed by their own aborted children — in a sort of dream or vision. Rachel’s Vineyard helps these women receive God’s forgiveness and often it is accompanied by establishing a sort of relationship with the child who happily lives in God’s presence.
Sep 22, 8:24 PM
VisitationSiste: Last bit on prudence- Can one practice prudence without the other virtues?
Sep 22, 8:24 PM
Ruth (Guest): It’s a little like we can have a relationship with saints who pray for our salvation in heaven.
Sep 22, 8:25 PM
Carroll (Guest): Hi- just “catching up.” Sorry to be so late.Will look forward to reviewing the full chat later.
Sep 22, 8:25 PM
Carol Ann: Prudence could tell us which virtue to practice when
Sep 22, 8:26 PM
Lisa C: I guess we cannot, Mother, because if we are choosing to do the right thing, we must be using other virtues to do so.
Sep 22, 8:27 PM
Michelle Pasko Olivier: Yes, I think they would work together
Sep 22, 8:27 PM
VisitationSiste: agree!
Sep 22, 8:30 PM
VisitationSiste: Time for me to leave- blessings to each of you!
Sep 22, 8:31 PM
Lisa C: Thank you and the Sisters for the prayers
Sep 22, 8:31 PM
Carroll (Guest): Thank you Mother Susan Marie- Have a blessed week!
Sep 22, 8:31 PM
Michelle Pasko Olivier: Good night and thank you
Sep 22, 8:31 PM
Carol Ann: Thank you, Mother, have a blessed week
Sep 22, 8:31 PM
Ruth (Guest): The virtue of prudence is connect to all the virtues. Think, for example of all the sins that are committed in the name of “love.” Without prudence passions are out of control. And yet holiness is not limited to those most capable or reasoning well.
Sep 22, 8:32 PM
Blanca Villa: Thank you. Have a great week everyone!
Sep 22, 8:32 PM
Carroll (Guest): Good point, Ruth.
Sep 22, 8:33 PM
Ruth (Guest): Thank you. This topic could in its specifics take several weeks. We did not mention the importance of allowing ourselves to be guided by a person with more experience who is also striving to do the will of God.
Sep 22, 8:33 PM
Carol Ann: Sometimes it seems like holiness goes to those who dont overanalyze and over think
Sep 22, 8:34 PM
Carol Ann: Spiritual direction is key. It baffles me why it is so hard to find
Sep 22, 8:34 PM
Ruth (Guest): Spiritual direction can play an important role in growing in virtue, in holiness.
Sep 22, 8:35 PM
Ruth (Guest): We are thinking along the same lines here.
Sep 22, 8:35 PM
Ruth (Guest): I find it interesting that many of the saints were friends or family members of saints.
Sep 22, 8:36 PM
Carol Ann: Saints run in packs
Sep 22, 8:37 PM
Ruth (Guest): I like that, Carol Ann. Although I’m not sure I’d use the word “packs.”
Sep 22, 8:38 PM
Ruth (Guest): “Communion of the Saints”
Sep 22, 8:38 PM
Carol Ann: Not an original though I can’t remember who said it first.
Sep 22, 8:39 PM
Ruth (Guest): Guilty by association <–> Innocent by association.
Sep 22, 8:39 PM
Carol Ann: Something like that. Mutual reinforcement
Sep 22, 8:42 PM
Ruth (Guest): So important to find the right companions. Our Churchs are supposed to do this, as are religious communities, sodalities, etc.
Sep 22, 8:42 PM
Carol Ann: Yet somehow we all seem to miss that point
Sep 22, 8:43 PM
Ruth (Guest): Maybe we should all and each be praying to find and form close friendships with saints.
Sep 22, 8:44 PM
Ruth (Guest): Actually, come to think of it, marriage and family life is meant to be a “breeding ground” for saints.
Sep 22, 8:45 PM
Carol Ann: So true on both points
Sep 22, 8:46 PM
Ruth (Guest): I am grateful that we have at least this “long distance” acquaintance with one another, and that we pray for one another.
Sep 22, 8:47 PM
Ruth (Guest): Carol Ann, I wish you a good week, and the RIGHT sort of guidance through your community. You remain in my prayers. Good night. God bless you.