Sunday chat The Danger of Lawsuits
Sep 20, 8:48 AM
VisitationSiste: Why should we love abjection? And, what exactly does it mean to be abject?
Is it wrong for Christians to ever take someone to court?
Why does St. Francis think lawsuits are so dangerous for the soul?
How can we use a difficult moment like a lawsuit help us grow in holiness?
How can we be sure to act with charity in all matters? Does this mean being a pushover?
Sep 20, 8:48 AM
VisitationSiste: Sun Sept 20 730pm est
Sep 20, 6:10 PM
Dawn (Guest): hello Sr Susan. Ive been called away so I will not be at chat this evening. Hope you all have a fruitful and enjoyable chat . See you next week. Dawn
Sep 20, 7:26 PM
VisitationSiste: Welcome Debra!
Sep 20, 7:27 PM
VisitationSiste: and welcome viewers too!
Sep 20, 7:30 PM
VisitationSiste: HI Carroll and Hong!
Sep 20, 7:30 PM
Carroll Vincent: Good evening!
Sep 20, 7:30 PM
Hong-Diep (Denise) Le: Hello everyone!
Sep 20, 7:32 PM
VisitationSiste: Hi Ruth!!
Sep 20, 7:32 PM
VisitationSiste: Lets start with the second question: Is it wrong for Christians to ever take someone to court?
Sep 20, 7:34 PM
Guest2970 (Guest): Hi
Sep 20, 7:34 PM
VisitationSiste: Then we can follow it up with St Francis de Sales opinion
Sep 20, 7:35 PM
VisitationSiste: I personally have never taken anyone to court
Sep 20, 7:36 PM
VisitationSiste: In our culture, it has not been seen as wrong per se, but our country does have alot, maybe too many, lawsuits People are afraid of them sometimes
Sep 20, 7:37 PM
Carroll Vincent: Thanks for stopping in Ruth- Know we are holding you closely in prayer!
Sep 20, 7:38 PM
VisitationSiste: The only tome I have been in court was in 1987 when I served on a jury- just a year before I entered the Monastery
Sep 20, 7:38 PM
VisitationSiste: time
Sep 20, 7:41 PM
VisitationSiste: Shall I ask the next q then?
Sep 20, 7:41 PM
VisitationSiste: Why does St. Francis think lawsuits are so dangerous for the soul?
Sep 20, 7:41 PM
Ruth Cassin: I think it is not only NOT wrong but I honestly regret NOT having done so in a few cases — EVEN if the consequence for me would have been disturbing. My reason, too many abuses, negligence and FRAUD just get swept under the carpet IF no one stands up and says in a way the medical establishment understands — with law suits — that certain behaviors and patterns of behavior are WRONG and need to be corrected. I may not “win back” anything whatever, but it is more likely that when a law suite occurs
Sep 20, 7:43 PM
VisitationSiste: Good point Ruth.
Sep 20, 7:44 PM
Ruth Cassin: the avoidable errors (and worse!) will be less likely to impact the person coming after me.
Sep 20, 7:44 PM
VisitationSiste: So it is justice vs one’s peace of soul?
Sep 20, 7:45 PM
VisitationSiste: St Francis said ” the difficulties connected with lawsuits nevertheless arouse my compassion in a higher degree because they are more dangerous for the soul. How often do we see people in peace amidst the thorns of illness and the loss of friends, and then watch them lose their inner peace when caught up by the worries of a lawsuit. And this is the reason, or rather the cause which has no foundation in reason: we find it hard to believe that God is using the evil of lawsuits as an exercise for us, because
Sep 20, 7:45 PM
VisitationSiste: we see that it is men who are prosecuting us; and not daring to kick against providence which we know to be both good and wise, we kick against the people who are afflicting us and we upbraid and blame them, not without great danger of losing charity, the only loss we ought to fear in this life.
Sep 20, 7:45 PM
VisitationSiste: Do you agree?
Sep 20, 7:47 PM
Ruth Cassin: Not exactly. Justice — at least here on earth — is not even obtainable in cases that cost life and limb. A little compensation MAY or may not come of a law suite. My friend CANNOT get back her husband, who died as a result of a botched port, e.g.
Sep 20, 7:47 PM
Carroll Vincent: If filing a lawsuit is the only means by which others might be protected from harm, then perhaps one might be more likely to lose peace by doing nothing than by filing.
Sep 20, 7:49 PM
VisitationSiste: St Francis de Sales believed strongly in Divine Providence – it seems even when we are the victims of an unjust lawsuit there is to be a lesson learned from it- at least that’s how I interpret what he said
Sep 20, 7:50 PM
Carroll Vincent: Yes- losing charity would be worse than losing this life… Perhaps it is sometimes more charitable to confront a wrong than to ignore it, though…
Sep 20, 7:51 PM
Ruth Cassin: I remind myself as often as necessary, “they would not have any power over me had my Father in Heaven not given it to them.” In that way I can BOTH accept God’s permissive will in the matter — which in my case may, indeed, cost my life, and certainly involves untold suffering. I can at once SUBMIT to God’s will AND TRY to advocate for myself. Sometimes I am not very good at the latter, and the intensive chemo even robs me of some of my ability to think, focus, DO
Sep 20, 7:51 PM
VisitationSiste: I think Scripture refers to the parties involved trying to settle differences out of court, so to speak,
Sep 20, 7:52 PM
Hong-Diep (Denise) Le: Yes, I agree.
Sep 20, 7:52 PM
Ruth Cassin: ADLs.
Sep 20, 7:53 PM
VisitationSiste: But “dangerous for the soul” in St Francis opinion, really makes one pause. How dangerous? Peace of mind is one thing, or lack of it, but danger to the soul sounds more ominous
Sep 20, 7:53 PM
Ruth Cassin: That is the idea, Carroll. A lot of GOOD actually comes of many lawsuits. Think, e.g., of safety of products, materials, medicines .. . .
Sep 20, 7:57 PM
VisitationSiste: How can we use a difficult moment like a lawsuit help us grow in holiness?
Sep 20, 7:58 PM
Carroll Vincent: I could see where there would be danger in filing a suit to defend against something done wrongfully to “me,” though- especially if the intent was to harm to “wrong doer.”
Sep 20, 8:01 PM
VisitationSiste: One could grow in holiness by being gentle yet firm during the agonizing moments of a lawsuit
Sep 20, 8:01 PM
Carroll Vincent: Any time we are accused of any sort of wrong doing, we can grow in holiness by first very honestly acknowledging our part or weakness, and then by forgiving whoever is accusing us… If I’m innocent of “this,” certainly there are many sins in my lifetime of which I have been guilty.
Sep 20, 8:01 PM
Carol Ann Chybowski: Hi Everyone!
Sep 20, 8:02 PM
VisitationSiste: Hi Carol Anne!
Sep 20, 8:02 PM
Carroll Vincent: Hi Carol Anne-
Sep 20, 8:03 PM
Carol Ann Chybowski: Have you heard from Dawn?
Sep 20, 8:03 PM
VisitationSiste: Approaching our opponents with good will- not easy but that is a road to holiness
Sep 20, 8:03 PM
VisitationSiste: Yes she is ok but not able to be here tonite
Sep 20, 8:03 PM
VisitationSiste: Approaching the lawsuit with prayer beforehand- putting results in God’s hands- that helps us grow in holiness too
Sep 20, 8:05 PM
Carroll Vincent: …every opportunity to practice virtues
Sep 20, 8:06 PM
VisitationSiste: If we were to lose the lawsuit- that would be a powerful moment to try to grow spiritually!
Sep 20, 8:07 PM
Ruth Cassin: The danger to the soul may not be a moral danger; it can also be that brought on by being overburdened with the specifics of a case, IF as happened to me because I got the WRONG law firm in one clear-cut case of negligence, I wound up having to be pro se. Horrendous burden for a woman not trained in law and suffering from traumatic brain injury! But I did not lose charity toward the person responsible. Can’t say I developed any love for the Insurance Company and their powerful lawyer firm!. It was the
Sep 20, 8:08 PM
Carroll Vincent: So true- whenever we lose whatever may seem most important to us in the moment!
Sep 20, 8:09 PM
Carol Ann Chybowski: Im coming in late but it feels like lawsuits are what happens when all else fails
Sep 20, 8:10 PM
VisitationSiste: That’s more or less what Scripture indicates, no?
Sep 20, 8:11 PM
VisitationSiste: How can we be sure to act with charity in all matters? Does this mean being a pushover?
Sep 20, 8:13 PM
Carol Ann Chybowski: I don’t think we’re supposed to be pushovers, but I’m not always sure what’s charitable
Sep 20, 8:13 PM
Ruth Cassin: only time I’d ever sued, and only because the Insurance Company was refusing to acknowledge any liability whatever, even though the policy holder was clear that he should have warned me about the open, hidden staircase . . . I was also falsely promised by the lawyer who came to my house, had my sign papers, etc, that I would not have to even THINK about the matter again. . . and then later, after assigning the easy case to a young associate who neglected it for too long, backed out.
Sep 20, 8:13 PM
VisitationSiste: Because sometimes we think something is charitable and actually it is enabling an injustice?
Sep 20, 8:13 PM
Ruth Cassin: That is true.
Sep 20, 8:16 PM
Carroll Vincent: With God’s grace, we can simply state the truth and set boundaries to protect ourselves from harm while maintaining charity towards others-
Sep 20, 8:17 PM
VisitationSiste: not to be mean-spirited but again, of good will despite the lawsuit, etc
Sep 20, 8:18 PM
Ruth Cassin: My oncologist is a perfect gentleman, and he had the right idea from the start, ordered the right tests, etc. But OTHER “players”(doctors) failed to do their part, and I am afraid his one weakness has been NOT “fighting” hard enough soon enough with those who disrespected even his orders for a CT with contrast.
Sep 20, 8:18 PM
VisitationSiste: Yes, with what consequences!
Sep 20, 8:19 PM
VisitationSiste: That “giving in” can be a pushover quality
Sep 20, 8:19 PM
VisitationSiste: pushover vs charity- again, one needs love and firmness combined
Sep 20, 8:21 PM
VisitationSiste: St Jane de Chantal was a strong woman- I can’t imagine her being a pushover
Sep 20, 8:22 PM
Ruth Cassin: And yet when there was a problem in his own office, and he recognized it, by the mercy of God, happened to come into the office when I was being unjustly verbally attacked — BECAUSE I was pushing to get what he said he needed to be done and being told that it COULD not happen for another three weeks. Within two to three minutes he MADE it happen promptly.
Sep 20, 8:22 PM
VisitationSiste: Visitandines, though, are not supposed to be involved in lawsuits. Trouble is, our institutions can be and have been sued, for ex someone falling on our sidewalk, etc
Sep 20, 8:22 PM
VisitationSiste: So he had the strength, Ruth?
Sep 20, 8:23 PM
Carol Ann Chybowski: I can’t imagine that you didn’t just help the injured person and fixed a problem without need of a lawsuit
Sep 20, 8:23 PM
Ruth Cassin: Definitely not a pushover once the diagnosis was clear.
Sep 20, 8:24 PM
Carroll Vincent: I try to use her as an example- I can imagine her choosing not to defend herself if wrongfully accused of a fault in community; yet simply offering a truthful explanation if someone in the world made an accusation t hg at might reflect on the Order
Sep 20, 8:24 PM
VisitationSiste: No the injured person wanted the court;
Sep 20, 8:26 PM
Ruth Cassin: How sad.
Sep 20, 8:26 PM
Carol Ann Chybowski: I won’t pretend to understand
Sep 20, 8:26 PM
VisitationSiste: Ruth, I hope this next round of treatment helps you-and thank you for being here and sharing it with us.
Sep 20, 8:26 PM
VisitationSiste: I think people want money
Sep 20, 8:27 PM
VisitationSiste: so they take one to court
Sep 20, 8:27 PM
VisitationSiste: This week Sept 24 is the 165th anniversary of the foundation of our Brooklyn Monastery. I will keep you each in prayer!
Sep 20, 8:27 PM
VisitationSiste: Many blessings!
Sep 20, 8:28 PM
VisitationSiste: Good night
Sep 20, 8:28 PM
Carroll Vincent: When I think of the state of my soul being more important than my professional reputation, for example. If wrongfully accused of some slight fault at work, I try to look the other way and accept my abjection. However, if there is a matter of more consequence, it is necessary to defend myself and represent the truth for the benefit of patient safety.
Sep 20, 8:28 PM
Carol Ann Chybowski: Good night Sister!
Sep 20, 8:31 PM
Carroll Vincent: Good night everyone. Have a blessed week!
Sep 20, 8:31 PM
Carol Ann Chybowski: Good night! God Bless you!
Sep 20, 8:32 PM
Ruth Cassin: Thank you. I was a mess for the first week afterward . . . This time I may have some help at home when I get back. Interestingly, I discovered that God was intensely at work — through me — even on the stressful ride home in a taxi last round. Got to know the driver . . . Played “Joy is Like the Rain” on I pad . . . He came around to sharing that he’d lost his newborn, then just the previous Sunday his father, and had turned against God. We actually wound up praying together — he returned to
Sep 20, 8:34 PM
Ruth Cassin: believing his Pentecostal – rooted trust that God loves him and that God’s ways are so far above our own that we cannot even begin to understand . .