Reflections: What does it mean to use our imagination in prayer? What does it mean for our wills to be moved in prayer? Are we to take action? Does the will pertain to more than just action? St. Francis mentions that the goal is for the imagined object to remain simple. However, would the rosary and the stations of the cross and lectio divina be possible in this manner? Similarly, does all the imagery of our faith (statues, paintings, stained glass, etc.) belie this point about keeping a minimal imagination
VisitationSiste: St. Francis concludes by mentioning getting together with St. Jane. What do you think such a lengthy visit with the two of them was like? Imagine the conversations, the meals, the recreation. What could it have been like?
If we give free reign to the imagination, can it harm our prayer?
Can you imagine yourself having St. Francis de Sales as a spiritual director? How would he advise you in your spiritual journey
Apr 9, 1:42 PM
VisitationSiste: SUN CHAT APR10 730PM EST
Apr 9, 1:42 PM
VisitationSiste: NEWSLETTER FOR CHAT http://www.icontact-archive.com/archive?c=1029793&f=1988&s=2046&m=634512&t=44f0d18c19339967b1be43b205c1596fa07d3b2574e5f4560987969cb886fdda
Apr 10, 6:46 PM
VisitationSiste: Last week I thought I would be late but in the end could not get here. Today I truly will be here but we have night prayer so I may be a little late
Carol (Guest): Yes, this year in really want to focus on slowing down, to feel more
Apr 10, 7:32 PM
SrSusan (Guest): First q What does it mean to use our imagination in prayer?
Apr 10, 7:33 PM
Simone (Guest): I hesitate to start our discussion tonight – with disagreeing with St. Francis – but I absolutely think that we can pray without using imagination. I mean – Carmelite Spirituality is mostly based on it
Apr 10, 7:33 PM
Carol (Guest): For me, it’s like watching a movie–the scene becomes animated and uncan hear, see
, 7:33 PM
Simone (Guest): sorry.. I focused so much on the letter – I kind of ignored the question 4 PM
Simone (Guest): I was introduced to imagination in prayer. with Ignatian Spirituality and Gospel contemplation. It has tremendously helped me in the beginning
Apr 10, 7:34 PM
SrSusan (Guest): I think St Francis says that you can go beyond the imagination but often beginners need to start there
Apr 10, 7:34 PM
SrSusan (Guest): Hi Mary
Apr 10, 7:34 PM
Carol (Guest): The imagination is an aid, a tool to be used when needed
Carol (Guest): IgnatiAn spirituality has that creative element to it 6 PM
Simone (Guest): I am glad to read what you are writing Sr, Susan, but I kind of understood it differently. I think it was more St. Jane who was the “driving force” to establish the prayer of quiet or the prayer of the heart. I think St. Francis de Sales was more hesitant in this
Apr 10, 7:36 PM
Simone (Guest): Hi Mary
Apr 10, 7:36 PM
Mary (Guest): Hi everyone…late arriving..did not read letters..sorry…Hi Carol
Simone (Guest): I am glad to read what you are writing Sr, Susan, but I kind of understood it differently. I think it was more St. Jane who was the “driving force” to establish the prayer of quiet or the prayer of the heart. I think St. Francis de Sales was more hesitant in this
Apr 10, 7:36 PM
Simone (Guest): Hi Mary
Apr 10, 7:36 PM
Mary (Guest): Hi everyone…late arriving..did not read letters..sorry…Hi Carol
Anna-Marie (Guest): Nice to be with you
Apr 10, 7:37 PM
Simone (Guest): Happy Palm Sunday Anna- Maria
Apr 10, 7:37 PM
SrSusan (Guest): But I think St Francis encouraged St Jane’s style
7 PM
SrSusan (Guest): But I think St Francis encouraged St Jane’s style
Apr 10, 7:38 PM
Simone (Guest): I think so too. But I think for him it was much more natural to pray with Imagination.
Apr 10, 7:38 PM
Mary (Guest): I use imagination with scripture when attempting to place myself within the scene, such as Veronica fighting thru ruly crowd to wipe face of Jesus…would I be so spiritually strong to do the same
Apr 10, 7:38 PM
Anna-Marie (Guest): I have been reading the letters each week. I was perplexed about use of imagination
Apr 10, 7:38 PM
SrSusan (Guest): Judging by his meditations in the Introduction to Devout Life I would agree with you
Apr 10, 7:38 PM
Simone (Guest): interesting. Why perplexed Anna-Marie?
Apr 10, 7:39 PM
SrSusan (Guest): But he also had exctasies or advanced prayer experiences
7:39 PM
Simone (Guest): oh.. would love to read more about those 38 PM
SrSusan (Guest): Judging by his meditations in the Introduction to Devout Life I would agree with you
Apr 10, 7:38 PM
Simone (Guest): interesting. Why perplexed Anna-Marie?
Apr 10, 7:39 PM
SrSusan (Guest): But he also had exctasies or advanced prayer experiences
Apr 10, 7:39 PM
Simone (Guest): oh.. would love to read more about those
Apr 10, 7:39 PM
Carol (Guest): Yes, can we read more?
Apr 10, 7:40 PM
SrSusan (Guest): They are only mentioned sporadically not in detail
Apr 10, 7:40 PM
Simone (Guest): He was trained with the Jesuits – so his formation was very much with the prayer of imagination – whereas St. Jane was for some years in the Carmelite order – and that’s the beauty – that together they enriched each other and informed each other I think
Apr 10, 7:40 PM
SrSusan (Guest): But there was the one with the crucifix if I can find that reference
Apr 10, 7:40 PM
Anna-Marie (Guest): I guess I was not thinking about literal sense like putting yourself in a scene.. I was thinking picturing lifting my heart up as an example
PM
Carol (Guest): Would you say that St. Teresa of Avila herself had imaginative experiences as she was a mystic?
Apr 10, 7:41 PM
Simone (Guest): oh Anna-Marie – I think you would love to do that. There are many guided gospel contemplations now on the internet. You might want to find one and try it.
Apr 10, 7:41 PM
Mary (Guest): cannot connect imagination with prayer..need more reading on subject
2 PM
Anna-Marie (Guest): Jesus said when you pray enter the inner room (is this an example of ascending up the mountain?) 42 PM
Simone (Guest): Carol – to your question. I would say “yes?
Apr 10, 7:42 PM
Simone (Guest): yes – without ?
Apr 10, 7:42 PM
Carol (Guest): It seems a stretch at first Mary
:43 PM
Simone (Guest): yes, it is a stretch – but if you have someone who guides it well – it can be a lovely encounter with Jesus. You just want to make sure you stay with gospel passages PM
Mary (Guest): what would be an of a mystical imaginative experience?
Apr 10, 7:44 PM
Carol (Guest): But the purpose is not to engage in flights of fancy but to engage oyr whole being in prayer 6 PM
SrSusan (Guest): q2 What does it mean for our wills to be moved in prayer?
Apr 10, 7:46 PM
Simone (Guest): Mary, I have found this link – you might want to copy it and listen to that one day
Apr 10, 7:46 PM
Simone (Guest): https://fb.watch/cj9tfoYxVY/
7:47 PM
Anna-Marie (Guest): Our will is needed to fight off distraction?
Apr 10, 7:47 PM
Simone (Guest): Anna-Marie – as for the inner room – I see that a deep inner experience – where you speak from the depth of your heart with Jesus
Apr 10, 7:48 PM
Anna-Marie (Guest): The Will is needed to action the desire of our heart..
Apr 10, 7:48 PM
Simone (Guest): fighting off distractions is import – but my experience is – that when I am praying in the “inner room” – I am never distracted –
Apr 10, 7:48 PM
Carol (Guest): Yes, and distractions will come
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Apr 10, 7:48 PM
Simone (Guest): I am distracted in vocal Prayers – like the rosary – but never when I am speaking from heart to heart with God
Apr 10, 7:48 PM
Carol (Guest): Some sound will trigger me out of the inner room
7:47 PM
Anna-Marie (Guest): Our will is needed to fight off distraction?
Apr 10, 7:47 PM
Simone (Guest): Anna-Marie – as for the inner room – I see that a deep inner experience – where you speak from the depth of your heart with Jesus
Apr 10, 7:48 PM
Anna-Marie (Guest): The Will is needed to action the desire of our heart..
Apr 10, 7:48 PM
Simone (Guest): fighting off distractions is import – but my experience is – that when I am praying in the “inner room” – I am never distracted –
Apr 10, 7:48 PM
Carol (Guest): Yes, and distractions will come
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Apr 10, 7:48 PM
Simone (Guest): I am distracted in vocal Prayers – like the rosary – but never when I am speaking from heart to heart with God
Apr 10, 7:48 PM
Carol (Guest): Some sound will trigger me out of the inner room
9 PM
Anna-Marie (Guest): Yes it does not do good to struggle and to use Will to turn attention
Apr 10, 7:50 PM
Simone (Guest): yes Carol – outside distractions of course – like if someone comes up to you and asks you something too – but I thought we were talking about inner distractions
Apr 10, 7:51 PM
Carol (Guest): Today I am both
Apr 10, 7:51 PM
SrSusan (Guest): go here for miraculous on St Francis de Sales http://www.marie-marthe-chambon.fr/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/flyer-Chapelet-of-the-Holy-Wounds-En.pdf
SrSusan (Guest): miraculous crucifix
Apr 10, 7:52 PM
Carol (Guest): Thank you Sister!!
Apr 10, 7:52 PM
Anna-Marie (Guest): St. Therese found it difficult to pray vocal prayers, she prayed with her heart and certainly used imagination and lots of images- I thinking of the elevator
Apr 10, 7:52 PM
SrSusan (Guest): ? St. Francis mentions that the goal is for the imagined object to remain simple. However, would the rosary and the stations of the cross and lectio divina be possible in this manner? Similarly, does all the imagery of our faith (statues, paintings, stained glass, etc.) belie this point about keeping a minimal
4 PM
Carol (Guest): I used to be distracted with vocal only Rosary, but one day i was goofing off on YouTube and typed Rosary into the search box. You would not believe how many there are. My prayer life went from zero to fifty overnight
Apr 10, 7:54 PM
10, 7:54 PM
Anna-Marie (Guest): Thank you Sister for this gem5 PM
SrSusan (Guest): you are welcome
Apr 10, 7:55 PM
Simone (Guest): I already printed it.
Apr 10, 7:56 PM
SrSusan (Guest): You are quick!
, 7:57 PM
Carol (Guest): I can’t wait to read it
Apr 10, 7:57 PM
SrSusan (Guest): I was there and saw it in 2009
M
Simone (Guest): I think the rosary and a Lectio Divine can be very simple. We can use our senses – and imagination to be drawn into prayer – or to substitute prayer . The first one I think is what St. Francis de Sales advises the later one is what he warns us of7:57 PM
Simone (Guest): I have Thonon on my list (imaginary list – speaking of imagination r 10, 7:58 PM
Carol (Guest): Yes, no imagination just for the sake of it
Apr 10, 7:58 PM
Simone (Guest): exactly
PM
Simone (Guest): I think we can join the imagines of the Holy Spirit – but we should not create them
Apr 10, 7:58 PM
Simone (Guest): images
9 PM
SrSusan (Guest): mystics often see images in prayer but sometimes cant interpret their meaning:59 PM
Carol (Guest): Yes, I always remember that Jesus is in charge of what I see
Apr 10, 7:59 PM
Simone (Guest): that’s a good way to put it Carol
8:00 PM
Carol (Guest): This is also true. The images can have many interpretations 01 PM
SrSusan (Guest): q St. Francis concludes by mentioning getting together with St. Jane. What do you think such a lengthy visit with the two of them was like? Imagine the conversations, the meals, the recreation. What could it have been like? 01 PM
Simone (Guest): I printed two weeks ago – all the stained glass windows from the Cathedral in Annecy – I think I will be tempted to give myself over to just stare at those if I ever will be there . So I thought I prepare myself and study them before I go – so I can concentrate on God more – once I am there.. but it looks so great
Apr 10, 8:02 PM
Anna-Marie (Guest): I’m also wondering if emptying ourselves of the world, the flesh and temptation can we then be more open to images or mystical experiences?
Apr 10, 8:02 PM
Carol (Guest): I imagine they spoke mostly about God, because not many in their acquaintance would let them do so
03 PM
Carol (Guest): The Jesus prayer can help you Anna-Marie
Apr 10, 8:03 PM
Simone (Guest): I imagine them speaking about their experiences with GOD – how they found him in different ways recently – what new thoughts they had about Him, the Trinity and His Holy Love
:04 PM
SrSusan (Guest): and many practical things after the Visitation was founded 4 PM
Simone (Guest): Mystical experiences are not in our will – God graces his beloved at a time he chooses – but purifying ourselves from attachments is definitely intensifying our depth and joy in prayer I find
Apr 10, 8:05 PM
Anna-Marie (Guest): Yes I agree Carol, it has helped me.. was thinking about it before you wrote… thank you for affirmation
05 PM
Simone (Guest): yes, I also picture them speaking a lot about practical things.
Apr 10, 8:05 PM
Carol (Guest): Yes, seeking mystical experiences can cause you to be tricked
0, 8:06 PM
Carol (Guest): Sometimes the Spirit works that way
Apr 10, 8:06 PM
SrSusan (Guest): St John of the Cross warns about that
8:06 PM
Anna-Marie (Guest): A great mystic 8 PM
Anna-Marie (Guest): Humility will help to guard against seeking
Apr 10, 8:08 PM
SrSusan (Guest): Can you imagine yourself having St. Francis de Sales as a spiritual director? How would he advise you in your spiritual journey
Apr 10, 8:08 PM
Ruth (Guest): I imagine that they prayed together, too.
8:09 PM
SrSusan (Guest): He directs from heaven Use his writngs He gives answers 0, 8:09 PM
Ruth (Guest): In a way we DO have him as a spiritual director.
Apr 10, 8:09 PM
Carol (Guest): I think he would encourage me to go to my inner room and stay there more
09 PM
Anna-Marie (Guest): St, Frances has been a spiritual director for me often.. can’t tell you how much his words of wisdom has impacted on my life🙏 :10 PM
Anna-Marie (Guest): My parish priest quoted him in confession PM
Ruth (Guest): Carol, I think he’d give me the same advice; and to go their in the Presence of the Blessed Sacrament as far as that is possible.
Apr 10, 8:12 PM
Carol (Guest): I wish Adoration were ,more available
Apr 10, 8:13 PM
Ruth (Guest): So do I.
, 8:14 PM
SrSusan (Guest): He would advise me to be at peace among busyness :15 PM
SrSusan (Guest): No perpetual adoration near you?
Apr 10, 8:15 PM
Ruth (Guest): I think that I am a bit jealous of religious and priests because of their access to the Sacrament.
15 PM
SrSusan (Guest): I acn understand that Ruth
Apr 10, 8:15 PM
SrSusan (Guest): can
0, 8:16 PM
Carol (Guest): Such a happiness to have Him there all the time 16 PM
SrSusan (Guest): Yes!
Apr 10, 8:16 PM
Anna-Marie (Guest): In speaking about busyness, my parish priest quoted St. Frances as saying if the devil can’t make you bad then he will make you busy (something on these lines)
Apr 10, 8:17 PM
Carol (Guest): A trick that often works
Apr 10, 8:17 PM
SrSusan (Guest): Interesting!
PM
Ruth (Guest): but there is a story about a monk going to visit a Starax; the short of it, the Starax put him to work scrubbing the floor over and over again — because it was in the midst of those chores that he, himself always encountered God.
Apr 10, 8:19 PM
Carol (Guest): So we must discern which tasks are necessary
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Apr 10, 8:21 PM
SrSusan (Guest): st francis quotes: “Salt and sugar are both excellent things,but too much of eitherspoils the dish.”(S XIX 2)”If you must go to excess on oneside or the other, let it be toward indulgence,for no sauce was ever spoiled by sugar.”(S II 13)A sensible mind is a medium mindwhich is neither too great nor too little.”(LR V 9)”It is a well-regulated mixture of bothsugar and salt which producesa good flavor in a salad dressing.”(S XVII 3)”Those who wish to straighten a young tree,not only to bring it to the directio
8:21 PM
Ruth (Guest): Do what is necessary, then what is possible, and soon you’ll be doing the imposssible St. Francis of Assisi said. , 8:22 PM
SrSusan (Guest): How are you all spending Holy Week? any in retreat
Apr 10, 8:23 PM
Carol (Guest): I wish I could
0, 8:24 PM
SrSusan (Guest): We try to keep retreat atmosphere during Triduum even as we are preparing for the services PM
Simone (Guest): I cancelled a lot of clients – just doing the absolute necessary this week – 0, 8:25 PM
Carol (Guest): I am striving to gave Friday afternoon at least
Apr 10, 8:25 PM
Simone (Guest): I really hope that will work out for you Carol
Apr 10, 8:26 PM
Ruth (Guest): The other day I was fantasizing “I wonder what the maximum time is that one can stay in a monastery as a retreatant.”
Apr 10, 8:26 PM
Simone (Guest): I love your fantasies Ruth
Apr 10, 8:26 PM
SrSusan (Guest): 8 days here
Apr 10, 8:26 PM
Carol (Guest): Without actually joining?
Apr 10, 8:26 PM
SrSusan (Guest): yes
Apr 10, 8:26 PM
Simone (Guest): and after 8 days.. you just apply again Ruth –
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7 PM
Anna-Marie (Guest): Fasting and more prayer offering any sacrifices (work obligations) that keep me from retreat 27 PM
Simone (Guest): Since I am already in a semi-fast because of my gall bladder I also thought that I want to incorporate fasting more intentionally this year , 8:28 PM
Carol (Guest): To offer it up? 8:28 PM
Ruth (Guest): I fast sometimes without particular , 8:29 PM
Anna-Marie (Guest): Thank you all, God bless and keep you close to his Sacred Heart and Holy Wound🙏
Apr 10, 8:29 PM
Anna-Marie (Guest): Wounds
PM
Anna-Marie (Guest): Thank you all, God bless and keep you close to his Sacred Heart and Holy Wound🙏
Apr 10, 8:29 PM
Anna-Marie (Guest): Wounds
Apr 10, 8:29 PM
Simone (Guest): thanks Anna-Marie- was nice seeing you again on the chat
Apr 10, 8:29 PM
Carol (Guest): God bless you too!
Apr 10, 8:30 PM
SrSusan (Guest): Blessed Holy Week and Easter!
Apr 10, 8:30 PM
SrSusan (Guest): Should we gather on Easter or skip
Apr 10, 8:30 PM
Carol (Guest): You too Sister. May God touch you in a special way
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8:29 PM
Carol (Guest): God bless you too!
Apr 10, 8:30 PM
SrSusan (Guest): Blessed Holy Week and Easter!
Apr 10, 8:30 PM
SrSusan (Guest): Should we gather on Easter or skip
Apr 10, 8:30 PM
Carol (Guest): You too Sister. May God touch you in a special way
Apr 10, 8:30 PM
Simone (Guest): I am probably available – but if you want to skip please do so Sr. Susan
Apr 10, 8:31 PM
SrSusan (Guest): Thank you! I will try to be here but if I am not means I could not
Apr 10, 8:31 PM
Carol (Guest): Same here. You may have a special night planned
Apr 10, 8:31 PM
SrSusan (Guest): God bless!