What is meekness? What does it mean to be meek? And what might that look like for someone who has a leadership role?Why is it so important to not live according to our passions? And if we are supposed to avoid them, how/why do we have them in the first place?What are the “contrary virtues” that St. Francis mentions, and how do we practice them?Discuss this pithy line: “you are suffering because you fear vice more than you love virtue.”How can we ensure we can think frequently of practicing meekness and h
humilty?In the Bible, Moses was called the meekest man on the face of the earth (Numbers 12:3 RSV Catholic Edition). What qualities did he possess that made him so meek?
Aug 3, 10:00 AM
SrSusan (Guest): Sun chat 730 pm est Aug 6
Aug 3, 10:00 AM
SrSusan (Guest): newsletter for chat https://visitationspirit.org/2023/08/newsletter-for-sunday-chat-august-6/
Newsletter for Sunday chat August 6 | Visitation Spirit
7:32 PM
SRSUSAN (Guest): q 1 What is meekness? What does it mean to be meek?
Aug 6, 7:33 PM
Paula (Guest): patient, submissive
Aug 6, 7:33 PM
Carol (Guest): I think the world’s definition is someone who will let others push them around and not do anything about it
Aug 6, 7:34 PMSRSUSAN (Guest): and the spiritual meaning is like gentleness
g 6, 7:35 PM
Paula (Guest): yep I agree with Carol but Jesus didn’t let Himself be pushed around
Aug 6, 7:35 PM
Dawn (Guest): Hi Sr Susan!
ug 6, 7:35 PMCarol (Guest): was Jesus meek?
ug 6, 7:35 PMPaula (Guest): He is meek and humble of heart
7:35 PM
Paula (Guest): He is meek and humble of heart
Aug 6, 7:36 PM
Dawn (Guest): Hi Carol and Paula!
Aug 6, 7:36 PM
Paula (Guest): It could also mean being self-less
Aug 6, 7:36 PM
Carol (Guest): Het He had no trouble overturning the money changers tables
ug 6, 7:37 PMSRSUSAN (Guest): And what might that look like (meek)for someone who has a leadership role?
ug 6, 7:38 PMPaula (Guest): but I think meek people only put up with so much too
g 6, 7:38 PM
Dawn (Guest): I have seen someone recently who does great things but is humble, maybe meek , but strong in that
Aug 6, 7:39 PM
Paula (Guest): easily to get along with
Aug 6, 7:39 PM
SRSUSAN (Guest): humble leadership like Pope Benedict for ex?
7:39 PM
Dawn (Guest): Papa Benedict was not a push over
Aug 6, 7:39 PM
Paula (Guest): but even those people who seem like push overs are not…
6, 7:39 PM
Carol (Guest): Yes, or John Paul II
Aug 6, 7:40 PM
Dawn (Guest): yes!
g 6, 7:40 PM
Paula (Guest): they stick to their morals / values quietly and get their way
Aug 6, 7:41 PM
Carol (Guest): Not generally making a ruckus about it
Aug 6, 7:41 PM
Paula (Guest): yep
Aug 6, 7:41 PM
Dawn (Guest): quietly powerful in the spirit
g 6, 7:41 PM
Aug 6, 7:42 PM
Dawn (Guest): meaning, they can be in terrible situation but be self controlled. and you can see the light in their soul
Aug 6, 7:42 PM
SRSUSAN (Guest): Yes!
ug 6, 7:43 PMCarol (Guest): Aha, practicing all the virtues simultaneously
6, 7:45 PM
Paula (Guest): like they say in many movies….be careful about those quiet, silent types
Aug 6, 7:46 PM
Dawn (Guest): I think these people are deeply prayerful, always in connection to God
g 6, 7:46 PM
Elena (Guest): Mm yes. I think meekness is admitting when you’re wrong, and also relying on God to direct things instead of trying to run things yourself. It also means as a leader, relying on the people you have in your care and not seeking glory in their eyes.
Aug 6, 7:46 PM
Carol (Guest): Still water runs deep
Aug 6, 7:46 PMPaula (Guest): wow
Aug 6, 7:48 PMSRSUSAN (Guest): q Why is it so important to not live according to our passions?
7:48 PM
Aug 6, 7:48 PM
Elena (Guest): If I lived according to my passions, all my relationships would be blown up. I’d destroy all those connections with my big mouth. ha
Aug 6, 7:49 PM
Paula (Guest): because when passions flair you cannot think logically
Aug 6, 7:49 PM
Carol (Guest): Because our passions are unruly
Aug 6, 7:49 PM
Dawn (Guest): those lead to grave matters I believe
g 6, 7:49 PMCarol (Guest): I hear you Elena
ug 6, 7:49 PMPaula (Guest): but passions are good…if directed positively
ug 6, 7:50 PM
Paula (Guest): they can help you achieve your goals
Aug 6, 7:50 PM
Elena (Guest): Yes, Paula – cannot think logically! We say things we regret, do things we’re sorry for later. And it becomes a habit, doing what’s easiest, which is to give into those moments of passion/emotion
ug 6, 7:50 PMPaula (Guest): like working passionately on a project
ug 6, 7:50 PM
Carol (Guest): Channel all that energy for good
ug 6, 7:51 PM
Elena (Guest): To me, “living according to our passions” means that our emotional state takes over and we do not respond appropriately, thoughtfully, or prayerfully. That’s different from our passions meaning the things we feel strongly about or enjoy or hold in high importance.
Aug 6, 7:51 PM
Dawn (Guest): yes Elena. I was recalling the last couple days where Ive experieced being taken over, and reacting to things. Better I should stay in solitude until this passes, and just pray alot
Aug 6, 7:52 PM
Dawn (Guest): that is excatly Elena!
Aug 6, 7:52 PM
Carol (Guest): I do see the difference
ug 6, 7:52 PM
Elena (Guest): A priest friend of mine told me years ago that praying even part of the Divine Office/Liturgy of the Hours would help with my emotional state, maintaining self-control so that I can process things and respond later.
Aug 6, 7:52 PM
Dawn (Guest): our emotions.
Aug 6, 7:52 PM
Paula (Guest): they are both the same…positive and negative passions
ug 6, 7:53 PMElena (Guest): This does have a positive effect, although I’ve gotten out of m prayer habits again with the new jobs. But I’ll get back to it
g 6, 7:53 PM
Carol (Guest): Please tell Elena
Aug 6, 7:54 PM
Elena (Guest): Paula – I’m not sure I agree. A positive passion could lead one to jumping into a situation with enthusiasm but without thoughtfulness. The impulsivity is there, whether toward a positive feeling or negative.
Aug 6, 7:54 PM
Elena (Guest): Not teaching! I write for the Catholic Courier, the diocesan paper. I also am the circulation coordinator there, so sort of a hybrid job.
Aug 6, 7:54 PM
Paula (Guest): so love is not a passion?
Aug 6, 7:54 PM
Paula (Guest): it is bad
Aug 6, 7:55 PM
Paula (Guest): well tell that to the Holy Spirit
Aug 6, 7:55 PM
Elena (Guest): Love has an emotional content, but real love is a choice, a decision to seek the good of the other.
Aug 6, 7:55 PM
Paula (Guest): it is passion too
Aug 6, 7:55 PM
SRSUSAN (Guest): q And if we are supposed to avoid them, how/why do we have them in the first place?What are the “contrary virtues” that St. Francis mentions, and how do we practice them?
ug 6, 7:55 PM
SRSUSAN (Guest): q And if we are supposed to avoid them, how/why do we have them in the first place?What are the “contrary virtues” that St. Francis mentions, and how do we practice them?
Aug 6, 7:56 PM
Elena (Guest): Thanks, Sr. Susan. It’s very interesting and certainly quite different! I’m enjoying it.
Aug 6, 7:56 PM
Carol (Guest): Emotions are guides, hints at what we are feeling in our subconcious
Aug 6, 7:57 PM
Dawn (Guest): feeling or thinking?
Aug 6, 7:57 PM
Elena (Guest): Right, emotions aren’t evil. But living through unchecked emotion without reason or prayer leads to sin, eventually.
Aug 6, 7:57 PM
Carol (Guest): Both
g 6, 7:58 PM
Elena (Guest): By “contrary virtues” Sr Susan, are we talking about chastity ~ lust; generosity ~ greed, sort of things?
Aug 6, 7:58 PM
Paula (Guest): or to courage with the Holy Spirit
Aug 6, 7:59 PM
Paula (Guest): the fire of God’s love
Aug 6, 7:59 PM
Paula (Guest): it is full of passion
Aug 6, 7:59 PM
SRSUSAN (Guest): reason, devotion, love, humility- those virtues I think
Aug 6, 7:59 PM
Elena (Guest): I think one issue is the translation and use of the word “passion” which can have several meanings and connotations.
Aug 6, 7:59 PM
Paula (Guest): even Jesus said I come to lite a fire on the earth
Aug 6, 7:59 PM
Dawn (Guest): I read something you said Sr Susan, I write in my journal alot , things that have meaning. you said ” A well formed conscious thinks with the truth vs what ones own conscious might make up.
ug 6, 8:00 PM
SRSUSAN (Guest): I must have quotes someone!
Aug 6, 8:00 PM
Dawn (Guest): now I can pass it on as well
g 6, 8:01 PM
Dawn (Guest): something I consider, do I think with the truth?
Aug 6, 8:01 PM
Elena (Guest): I think there are specific virtues we can pray for and practice that will directly counteract the particular passions that control us. If we are a slave to our passions, that means they control us.
Aug 6, 8:03 PMSRSUSAN (Guest): Our daily life gives us many opportunities to practice virtue but we must be aware at the moment we are caught up in something
g 6, 8:03 PM
Dawn (Guest): Could we say that meekness is humility?
Aug 6, 8:03 PM
Elena (Guest): Which is the great lie perpetuated in today’s secular society — “freedom” is being defined as doing whatever you want with no limits, letting your passions run free, releasing all inhibition. But in reality, we would become slaves to those passions, which isn’t freedom at all.
Aug 6, 8:03 PM
Carol (Guest): Hmm, which would control a fiery tongue
Aug 6, 8:03 PM
SRSUSAN (Guest): it is close but meekness is more like gentleness
Aug 6, 8:03 PM
Paula (Guest): that is very hard to do with passions
g 6, 8:03 PMElena (Guest): Sr. Susan YES.. This has been a constant prayer of mine – to see those opportunities God gives me to practice a virtue I am lacking.
g 6, 8:04 PMElena (Guest): Yes, meekness = gentleness. But that doesn’t rule out righteous anger. Somone mentioned Jesus overturning the temple tables. That kind of anger drives us to action and can be a sign that something is wrong.
ug 6, 8:05 PMPaula (Guest): meekness and humility are two different virtues
ug 6, 8:06 PMPaula (Guest): St. Francis says never to be angry at all
Aug 6, 8:06 PMDawn (Guest): Jesus said be angry but sin not
g 6, 8:06 PM
Elena (Guest): Hm. Well Jesus displayed righteous anger. But again… that’s different from wrath, which is raging uncontrollably and from disordered emotions.
Aug 6, 8:07 PM
Dawn (Guest): is that right?
6, 8:07 PM
Paula (Guest): Jesus was against anger too
Aug 6, 8:07 PM
Elena (Guest): St. Paul wrote about not letting the sun go down on your anger, which to me means “let it go and make peace” rather than letting something fester and become a wound.
g 6, 8:07 PM
Carol (Guest): So why then do we speak of the wrath of God when wrath displays everything God is not
Aug 6, 8:08 PM
SRSUSAN (Guest): old testament perhaps, that phrase???
Aug 6, 8:08 PM
Dawn (Guest): because rightous anger has a place
Aug 6, 8:08 PM
Paula (Guest): that’s why God does not want us to be anry
g 6, 8:08 PM
Elena (Guest): Dunno. Translation issue? Because what God displayed was divine justice. It’s the difference between a parent disciplining the child and lashing out and destroying everything in sight because you’re ticked off (having a tantrum)
Aug 6, 8:09 PM
Carol (Guest): It probably is OT
Aug 6, 8:09 PM
SRSUSAN (Guest): q Discuss this pithy line: “you are suffering because you fear vice more than you love virtue.”
Aug 6, 8:09 PM
Elena (Guest): But the God of the OT is the same God of the NT. God doesn’t change.
6, 8:10 PM
Carol (Guest): If we loved virtue, then its practice would begin to come naturally. We would not fear sin so much
Aug 6, 8:10 PM
Dawn (Guest): if you witness something terrible happening to an innocent, I think anger- or maybe its something else- that rises up and you react to defend
g 6, 8:10 PM
Elena (Guest): Hmm perhaps fearing vice can become scrupulosity and a negative self-image, rather than loving virtue because it brings us closer to God and leads us to relationship with others and God.
Aug 6, 8:11 PM
Paula (Guest): yes, but who are we to judge….God knows everything…everyone’s thoughts and He is in charge
6, 8:11 PMElena (Guest): We are meant to judge actions. We don’t judge souls, but we must judge with the God-given and formed consciences that we have. Otherwise, why would we have them?
g 6, 8:12 PMCarol (Guest): Oh there you go Elena! Nothing good ever comes from fear
g 6, 8:12 PMElena (Guest): We can judge when injustice and harm have been done. We ought to do this, and that is why we have consciences.
ug 6, 8:13 PM
Elena (Guest): Carol, I’m just starting to move into a place where I’m focusing more on virtue and less on fear. Upbringing and sometimes the voices inside the Church made it hard for me and I’m sure many many others to do this.
Aug 6, 8:13 PM
Paula (Guest): if you fear the bad and are not ready to embrace the good you are not really repentant and detached from sin
Aug 6, 8:13 PM
Carol (Guest): Oh dear, look at the time. I must scoot off. God bless you everyone!
g 6, 8:13 PM
Carol (Guest): Oh dear, look at the time. I must scoot off. God bless you everyone!
Aug 6, 8:14 PM
Elena (Guest): Paula – good point! The detachment from sin is essential
Aug 6, 8:14 PM
SRSUSAN (Guest): blessings Carol Thanks for being here!
Aug 6, 8:14 PM
Elena (Guest): Bye, Carol!
ug 6, 8:16 PMSRSUSAN (Guest): q n the Bible, Moses was called the meekest man on the face of the earth (Numbers 12:3 RSV Catholic Edition). What qualities did he possess that made him so meek?
g 6, 8:17 PMDawn (Guest): A very good intention is to want to please God, that can apply to any situation
g 6, 8:17 PMPaula (Guest): humility
ug 6, 8:17 PM
Dawn (Guest): maybe a desire to please God, in awe of him
Aug 6, 8:17 PM
Elena (Guest): He accepted what God asked him to do, even though he had no idea how to do it. He trusted God would lead him and the Hebrews.
Aug 6, 8:18 PM
Paula (Guest): gratitude relying on everything from Hod
Aug 6, 8:18 PM
Paula (Guest): God
6, 8:19 PMSRSUSAN (Guest): and even when he was overwhelmed from his people and seemed angry he still asked that he be removed from the earth, not his people
Aug 6, 8:20 PM
Elena (Guest): Yes!
Aug 6, 8:20 PM
Dawn (Guest): if God was speaking to me and giving direction to lead the people, to write the 10 Commandments, that would be extremly humbling
ug 6, 8:20 PM
Elena (Guest): Ladies, I need to run. Have a blessed week, everyone!
Aug 6, 8:20 PM
SRSUSAN (Guest): ok God bless!
Aug 6, 8:20 PM
Paula (Guest): Have a good week
ug 6, 8:22 PM
SRSUSAN (Guest): any other general comments?
Aug 6, 8:22 PM
Dawn (Guest): I do want to understand the difference between humility and meekness
Aug 6, 8:22 PM
SRSUSAN (Guest): humility is the truth of something, meekness is a gentle way of being
Aug 6, 8:23 PMDawn (Guest): Ah! so simple yet profound , thank you!
ug 6, 8:24 PMSRSUSAN (Guest): those are essential Visitandine virtues
Aug 6, 8:24 PMDawn (Guest): I will read more about humility, if I understand it better I may aquire it
Aug 6, 8:25 PMSRSUSAN (Guest): https://aleteia.org/2018/05/29/how-to-foster-a-humble-heart-according-to-st-francis-de-sales/
Aug 6, 8:25 PMDawn (Guest): thank you Sr
ug 6, 8:26 PM
Dawn (Guest): I understand humility is the most important thing in spiritual warfare
Aug 6, 8:26 PM
Dawn (Guest): or virtue
Aug 6, 8:26 PM
SRSUSAN (Guest): Thank you both for being here and I hope we will connect next week. E mail if you have any other thoughts or questions!