What does it mean to be filled with the life and death of Jesus?In this brief letter, St. Francis talks about the Shroud of Turin. This holy relic has gotten a lot of extra attention in our age. Regardless of whether it is the true shroud or not, what significance does it hold knowing how many devotees (and saints like St. Francis) have seen it and touched it (and dropped beads of sweat on it)?St. Francis found the falling of his sweat to be a moment for spontaneous prayer, but he was rebuked by a Cardinal.
He gave a pious response about uniting our sweat and ourselves with Our Lord. Was he being too relaxed in this response about the Lord not being so particular, similar to “God doesn’t care what you wear to church” or “Come as you are” kind of stance?Why are physical (“sacramental”) items so important for helping to deepen our faith and devotion?What if you were allowed to touch the Shroud? Would you feel more united to our Lord? But compare that to receiving the Holy Eucharist — his body, blood, soul and divinity.If we have a new life in Christ and yet we still stumble and fall into sin, what exactly is different about our lives compared to the time before we were regenerated by baptism?
May 9, 10:14 AM
SrSusan (Guest): Sun May 12 730-830pm
May 9, 10:14 AM
SrSusan (Guest): newsletter for chat https://visitationspirit.org/2024/05/sun-chat-on-shroud-of-turin-may-12/
Sun chat on Shroud of Turin May 12 | Visitation Spirit
Sun chat on Shroud of Turin May 12 | Visitation Spirit
ay 12, 4:33 PMSteph (Guest): This is great topic. I just signed up with holy face arch con fraternity and this sort of relates to holy face devotion
y 12, 4:34 PM
Simone (Guest): it sure does. I just sent the letter from St. Francis de Sales to the priest in our diocese who shows the Shroud and teaches about it
May 12, 4:34 PM
SrSusan (Guest): Yes w e can begin
May 12, 4:34 PM
Ruth (Guest): Wonderful, Simone!
ay 12, 4:35 PMSrSusan (Guest): St Francis de Sales’s mother when expecting him saw the Shroud
ay 12, 4:35 PM
Simone (Guest): and he received this blessing and lived it then
May 12, 4:35 PM
SrSusan (Guest): and later in life he gets to ber in procession with it
May 12, 4:35 PM
SrSusan (Guest): yes!
May 12, 4:36 PMSrSusan (Guest): q What does it mean to be filled with the life and death of Jesus?In this brief letter, St. Francis talks about the Shroud of Turin. This holy relic has gotten a lot of extra attention in our age. Regardless of whether it is the true shroud or not, what significance does it hold knowing how many devotees (and saints like St. Francis) have seen it and touched it (and dropped beads of sweat on it)
ay 12, 4:36 PM
Simone (Guest): Do you want to combine the first two questions Sister?
May 12, 4:36 PM
Ruth (Guest): I did not realize from the article that it was a procession.
May 12, 4:37 PM
SrSusan (Guest): one at a time would be better! thanks Simone
May 12, 4:37 PM
Simone (Guest): Hi Carol!
ay 12, 4:37 PM
Steph (Guest): Is that similar to. E filled with holy spiritual?
May 12, 4:37 PM
SrSusan (Guest): Hi Carol
May 12, 4:37 PM
Steph (Guest): Holy spirit
May 12, 4:37 PM
Simone (Guest): To be honest.. I never thought of “being filled with the death of Jesus”. WOW.. the life of Jesus.. YES, of course.. but the death.. that’s new to me
May 12, 4:37 PM
SrSusan (Guest): Not sure of the question
May 12, 4:38 PM
Carol (Guest): Hi everyone
May 12, 4:38 PM
SrSusan (Guest): Oh I understand
May 12, 4:38 PM
Simone (Guest): to be filled with the death of Jesus could mean — sacrificial love maybe?
May 12, 4:38 PM
Ruth (Guest): Hi Carol!
May 12, 4:38 PM
Simone (Guest): self emptying?
May 12, 4:38 PM
SrSusan (Guest): When baptized we enter into His Death, and His resurrection
ay 12, 4:39 PM
Simone (Guest): true – just sometimes to difficult to get your head around it
May 12, 4:39 PM
Carol (Guest): So then was His death another type of baptism?
May 12, 4:39 PM
Simone (Guest): and sometimes for glimpses so crystal clear
May 12, 4:39 PM
SrSusan (Guest): Yes we dont fill it or maybe even remember it
May 12, 4:39 PM
Ruth (Guest): Isn’t Baptism like entering into the death and life of Jesus.
May 12, 4:39 PM
Simone (Guest): I like your question Cartol
May 12, 4:39 PM
Simone (Guest): oops.. Carol
May 12, 4:40 PMSimone (Guest): His death was certainly life giving… and baptism is a life giving sacrament
ay 12, 4:40 PMSteph (Guest): Oh yes Ruth. We die of ourselves to unite with Jesus
May 12, 4:40 PMSimone (Guest): Is baptism something done to us – or we doing?
May 12, 4:41 PMSrSusan (Guest): Done to us I think as another takes the action and says I baptize you in the Name of the Father Son and Holy Spirit
ay 12, 4:42 PM
Simone (Guest): thanks Sister.. so the dying to ourself – is a result to what is done to us?
May 12, 4:42 PM
SrSusan (Guest): The symbolism of being submerged in water is the death part and coming back up the life part
May 12, 4:43 PM
SrSusan (Guest): I guess any action we take ultimately needs grace to do it
May 12, 4:43 PMSimone (Guest): I like that Sister.
ay 12, 4:43 PM
Carol (Guest): And Jesus was submerged in the earth and then rose
May 12, 4:43 PM
SrSusan (Guest): ah yes
May 12, 4:43 PM
Simone (Guest): I found it always a dying of our fallen human nature
May 12, 4:44 PM
Simone (Guest): removal of original sin
May 12, 4:44 PM
SrSusan (Guest): now if one is sprinkled with the baptismal water the symbolism is not as clear but the intent is there
May 12, 4:44 PM
Steph (Guest): I was re reading Gospel of John yesterday and like Jesus at well said He has living water for us
May 12, 4:44 PM
Simone (Guest): to be honest.. sometimes I wish we could have baptism by submerging
May 12, 4:44 PM
Carol (Guest): Is that why candidates have full immersion at the Vigil?
May 12, 4:44 PM
Simone (Guest): some churches do it I think
May 12, 4:45 PM
Simone (Guest): oh.. Carol.. you have full immersion at the Vigil? That is wonderful!
May 12, 4:45 PM
SrSusan (Guest): Yes Carol and yes Simone I think it is coming back
May 12, 4:45 PMSrSusan (Guest): Some churches have huge baptismal fonts like a pool with running water
May 12, 4:46 PMSimone (Guest): I really like this.
May 12, 4:46 PMSimone (Guest): you need a lot of holy water though
ay 12, 4:47 PMSrSusan (Guest): I think Sr Jennifer was baptized by submersion, not sure
ay 12, 4:47 PMSrSusan (Guest): q Regardless of whether it is the true shroud or not, what significance does it hold knowing how many devotees (and saints like St. Francis) have seen it and touched it (and dropped beads of sweat on it)
May 12, 4:49 PMSteph (Guest): It shows faith and devotion. Like statues in church or relics of saints?
May 12, 4:49 PMSimone (Guest): I am not very familiar with the Shroud to be honest.. but the one thing that comes to my mind is.. that our humanity is linked with the sacred humanity when we touch the shroud
May 12, 4:49 PM
Carol (Guest): I thought they proved its a true relic?
May 12, 4:50 PM
SrSusan (Guest): I think they did actually , or most people think so. with scientific studies
May 12, 4:50 PM
Ruth2 (Guest): We have baptism by Emerson in many of our churches.
May 12, 4:50 PM
Simone (Guest): the thing that has spoken most to me was – that they found that the colouring on the cloth – was – like if something had exploded in the cloth.. Like an atomic eruption – which in some ways really helped me to understand the resurrection better.
May 12, 4:50 PM
SrSusan (Guest): Incredible relic
May 12, 4:51 PM
SrSusan (Guest): the power of Heaven
May 12, 4:51 PM
Simone (Guest): exactly
May 12, 4:51 PMCarol (Guest): I hadn’t heard that Simone, but it sure makes sense
May 12, 4:51 PMRuth2 (Guest): I am pretty sure it has been verified as the true shroud now
ay 12, 4:52 PM
Ruth2 (Guest): but people do not TOUCH it these days.
May 12, 4:52 PM
Simone (Guest): sorry that I cannot name the source.. but it was someone totally trustworthy. To be honest I think it was in one of the latest homilies from Bishop Baroon
May 12, 4:52 PM
Simone (Guest): Barron
May 12, 4:52 PM
SrSusan (Guest): and the faith of saints helps our faith
May 12, 4:52 PMSimone (Guest): yes, the faith of Saints help our faith
May 12, 4:53 PM
Simone (Guest): you are right Ruth.. people do not touch it.. but if sweat would fall on it.. then it would be a merging of two humanities
May 12, 4:53 PM
SrSusan (Guest): q St. Francis found the falling of his sweat to be a moment for spontaneous prayer, but he was rebuked by a Cardinal.
He gave a pious response about uniting our sweat and ourselves with Our Lord. Was he being too relaxed in this response about the Lord not being so particular, similar to “God doesn’t care what you wear to church” or “Come as you are” kind of stance?
ay 12, 4:54 PMCarol (Guest): Makes me shiver to think of i
ay 12, 4:55 PMRuth2 (Guest): I found St. Francis’s spontaneous prayer so appropriate AND his response to the Cardinal.
May 12, 4:56 PM
SrSusan (Guest): St Francis did not deliberately drop sweat on it, as opposed to thinking about what to wear to Church, which is premeditated
May 12, 4:56 PM
Simone (Guest): ok.. I cannot say anything if St. Francis was too relaxed.. but may I say that I bother more how people overdress at church. Sometimes I think I am at a fashion show. I purposefully do not majorly dress up for church. Also.. what about the poor people who cannot afford expensive clothes? They might feel excluded
May 12, 4:56 PM
Ruth2 (Guest): Even if the Cardinal did not.
May 12, 4:57 PM
Simone (Guest): I am interested in your opinions on the dressing up for church. I try not to judge – but I must confess – it is one area where my mind does judge.. when I see mostly women – dressed up in mega high heels- and fancy dresses. Why – is my question.
May 12, 4:57 PM
Ruth2 (Guest): I had not idea, Simone, how different the customs are between here and where you live and worship.
May 12, 4:57 PM
Simone (Guest): I also think it is very cultural
May 12, 4:57 PM
Simone (Guest): do people really dress up for church where you are Ruth?
May 12, 4:57 PM
SrSusan (Guest): Our Churches are casual but some cultures do dress up
May 12, 4:57 PM
Carol (Guest): Simone, I think that is the thought behind school uniforms!
May 12, 4:58 PMSimone (Guest): good point Carol
May 12, 4:58 PM
Ruth2 (Guest): At our little church here, many look like they could be going on a hike directly from or before Mass.
May 12, 4:58 PM
Steph (Guest): Church is casual too
May 12, 4:59 PM
SrSusan (Guest): But in my Polish neighborhood as a child people were in their “Sunday best”
May 12, 4:59 PM
Carol (Guest): At home, there is a beach campground and we always had campers at Mass. We were happynthey covered their bathing suits!
May 12, 4:59 PM
Steph (Guest): I do see more veils now with casual dress f
May 12, 4:59 PM
Carol (Guest): We too, being Polish, were taught to dress in our best for Jesus. Not to be seen, but for Jesus’ honor
May 12, 4:59 PM
Steph (Guest): Young and older women with beautiful veils just like my grandmother had back in the day lol
May 12, 5:00 PM
Simone (Guest): well – obviously covered bathing suits is something I also would not really like. But there is a middle ground. I want to be dressed so it does not distract me from my worship
May 12, 5:00 PM
SrSusan (Guest): St Francis was a moderate, did not go in for extremes and that probably could be applied to the question of dressing for church
May 12, 5:00 PMSimone (Guest): so Carol, do you still dress in your best for church?
May 12, 5:01 PMSimone (Guest): cause I know – you would do it with a truly pure heart – that would reconcile me.. when I see dressed up women now
ay 12, 5:01 PMSimone (Guest): a veil makes a woman instantly look modest
ay 12, 5:02 PM
Carol (Guest): Iam usually on the casual side, but I do have special,outfits, skirt sets, a silk blouse that I wear for Him
May 12, 5:02 PM
Simone (Guest): but that itself can be a temptation
May 12, 5:02 PM
SrSusan (Guest): We have a “Sunday holy habit” less worn than the weekday one
May 12, 5:02 PMSimone (Guest): oh.. I had no idea.. interesting Sister
May 12, 5:03 PM
Steph (Guest): Interesting. I also thought one set habit for all days
May 12, 5:03 PM
SrSusan (Guest): Thats the custom here anyway
May 12, 5:03 PM
SrSusan (Guest): q Why are physical (“sacramental”) items so important for helping to deepen our faith and devotion?
ay 12, 5:04 PM
Carol (Guest): We are physical beings (for now) and need things we can touch and fee
May 12, 5:04 PM
Ruth2 (Guest): We are physical as well as spiritual beings.
May 12, 5:05 PMSimone (Guest): I am sad that sacramentals do not do too much for me. I wish I could enjoy them more.
May 12, 5:05 PM
Simone (Guest): can you name some of your favourite sacramentals?
May 12, 5:05 PM
Ruth2 (Guest): God knows of what we are made and has given us Sacraments and sacramentals to help us relate to him.
May 12, 5:06 PM
Steph (Guest): Yes using the senses. Seeing the statues, feeling/touching the rosary beads,
May 12, 5:06 PM
Simone (Guest): oh.. I love the sacraments
May 12, 5:06 PM
SrSusan (Guest): The scapular
May 12, 5:06 PM
Carol (Guest): Medals honoring saints
May 12, 5:06 PMSteph (Guest): My miraculous medal.
May 12, 5:06 PM
Simone (Guest): Is my ring – which I bought for myself for my consecration last year – a sacramental? I guess not.
May 12, 5:06 PM
Steph (Guest): I went to the shrine of miraculous medal in Philadelphia. It was beautiful
May 12, 5:07 PM
Ruth2 (Guest): Holy water and blessed salt.
May 12, 5:07 PM
Ruth2 (Guest): blessed candles.
May 12, 5:07 PM
Simone (Guest): interesting Steph. I never heard about this shrine.
May 12, 5:07 PM
SrSusan (Guest): is it blessed Simone?
May 12, 5:07 PM
Simone (Guest): yes – the ring is blessed
May 12, 5:07 PM
SrSusan (Guest): for religious reasons, right, so i think it is considered a sacramental
ay 12, 5:08 PM
Steph (Guest): https://miraculousmedal.org/
Home – The Miraculous Medal Shrine
May 12, 5:08 PM
Simone (Guest): yes, for religious reasons. it also has a scripture verse engraved
May 12, 5:08 PM
Simone (Guest): thanks Steph for the link
May 12, 5:08 PMSteph (Guest): It as just recently named a basilica
May 12, 5:09 PMSimone (Guest): I had a quick glance right now.. it looks beautiful
ay 12, 5:09 PM
Simone (Guest): my crucifix on my necklace is very important to me too. I never take it off
May 12, 5:10 PM
Ruth2 (Guest): I dunno Simone. I used to bless my text books with a prayer that I learn well the contents so as to better serve my future patients. In a sense they become like sacramentals —.
May 12, 5:10 PM
SrSusan (Guest): I guess a shrine is like a huge sacramental, in a way- not theologically of course but in some way
ay 12, 5:10 PM
SrSusan (Guest): I guess a shrine is like a huge sacramental, in a way- not theologically of course but in some way
May 12, 5:10 PM
Simone (Guest): oh Ruth.. that is so so touching.. you blessing the text books. and the prayer for your future patients. Thanks for sharing
May 12, 5:11 PM
SrSusan (Guest): sometimes these things grow on you, for ex if I were not in the Monastery today I would like to be visiting shrines but when I was out there 36 yeras ago I had not yet developed that kind of interest
May 12, 5:11 PM
Ruth2 (Guest): Any material that is set aside to give glory to God, I would think can be a sort of sacramenta
May 12, 5:12 PM
Simone (Guest): I am glad you are not taking offence in it.
May 12, 5:13 PM
SrSusan (Guest): no not at all
May 12, 5:13 PM
SrSusan (Guest): q What if you were allowed to touch the Shroud? Would you feel more united to our Lord?
ay 12, 5:13 PM
Ruth2 (Guest): In Germany we brought Easter foods to church to have them blessed. Including SALT to be used all year.
May 12, 5:13 PM
Simone (Guest): my Mom did the same thing Ruth in Austria
May 12, 5:13 PM
Steph (Guest): Oh apologies Sister, I appreciate you
May 12, 5:14 PM
Carol (Guest): I don’t know, but we would feel the power of it
May 12, 5:14 PM
Carol (Guest): Polish people do,thatbtoo
May 12, 5:14 PM
SrSusan (Guest): Yes we did in our parish as a child when I was there
May 12, 5:14 PM
Simone (Guest): oh Carol.. I so wish I could believe that. It would have to be a supernatural grace – but I think, that I personally would not feel more united with my Lord- not more than in my usual prayer time
ay 12, 5:15 PMSteph (Guest): No, not really more united. I would not want to touch it and get anything on it lolMay 12, 5:15 PM
ay 12, 5:16 PMRuth2 (Guest): Tell us more, Simone,about your consecration. If your ring reminds you of your consecration, perhaps it IS a sacramental.
ay 12, 5:18 PMSimone (Guest): oh Ruth.. that would take up too much time.. but as for the ring.. it is a simple gold ring.. with a pearl – because it reminds me daily that I left everything for him ( well you know what I mean).. but also HE left everything for me (heaven).. and I am his pearl. The verse engraved is from Song of Songs. ” I have found the one my soul loves”
May 12, 5:19 PM
Carol (Guest): That is beautiful
May 12, 5:19 PM
Ruth2 (Guest): I think how we feel about touching the shroud would be very much dependent upon our preparation our thoughts about it, our prayer, our belief and its authenticity, even whether or not we had a good night sleep the night before and are able to respond as deeply as we might Might not if we’re overtired or distracted ?
ay 12, 5:20 PMSimone (Guest): very true Ruth.. I like the thought of “preparation”.. it is like with mass. A lot of factors influence how I experience my unity with Jesus at mass
ay 12, 5:20 PMRuth2 (Guest): Beautiful Simone!
ay 12, 5:21 PMSrSusan (Guest): q But compare that to receiving the Holy Eucharist — his body, blood, soul and divinity.If we have a new life in Christ and yet we still stumble and fall into sin, what exactly is different about our lives compared to the time before we were regenerated by baptism?
May 12, 5:21 PM
Carol (Guest): We know to get up and try again for the better way
May 12, 5:22 PM
Simone (Guest): I mean..the Eucharist is a total different category for me than a sacramental
May 12, 5:22 PM
SrSusan (Guest): yes definitely
May 12, 5:22 PMSimone (Guest): the one is like having a lovely picture of my daughter – that reminds me of her and helps me to unite with her in my mind.. the other one is my daughter coming home giving me a hug
May 12, 5:23 PMRuth2 (Guest): Good analogy Simone,
ay 12, 5:24 PM
SrSusan (Guest): and that’s what sacramentals do in a way they are like pictures of holiness but not the holiness itself
May 12, 5:24 PM
SrSusan (Guest): they remind us of Jesus or the saints but they are not them
ay 12, 5:25 PMCarol (Guest): Yes. They are a sign
ay 12, 5:25 PMSimone (Guest): but if we love someone – then we like to be surrounded with things that remind us of them – because it definitely is a connection.
ay 12, 5:26 PMSimone (Guest): Thank you all.. you have helped me to clarify my own belief about sacramentals tonight.
May 12, 5:26 PM
Simone (Guest): I have to go now.. Have a lovely preparation week for Pentecost.
May 12, 5:26 PM
Ruth2 (Guest): Jesus is truly present in the Eucharist, body, blood, soul and divinity. He is ALWAYS with us, but somehow that always is different. And he is in our neighbors, too. Sometimes, in their goodness easy to perceive; other times it takes an effort to recognize him in another.
May 12, 5:26 PM
SrSusan (Guest): Yes may the Holy Spirit bring you Love and all the other gifts
May 12, 5:27 PM
Simone (Guest): I am doing a Pentecost novena . not my biggest strength to be honest
May 12, 5:27 PM
SrSusan (Guest): God bless!
May 12, 5:27 PM
Simone (Guest): Sending my love to all of you!
ay 12, 5:27 PMCarol (Guest): Have a blessed week Simone!
May 12, 5:28 PMSteph (Guest): Good night all. May God’s peace be you
ay 12, 5:28 PM
SrSusan (Guest): Thank you!
May 12, 5:28 PM
SrSusan (Guest): Blessings to all!
May 12, 5:28 PMCarol (Guest): Good night!